[l_t]

What kind of negative side-effects are you referring to? I've heard a fair number of people talk about high-level Yoga stuff being dangerous, but I've never really understood what they meant. Is it related to the suspension of breath, like risk of unconsciousness? Long term joint damage? (BTW, thanks for the book rec -- Kundalini Exposed looks pretty interesting).

[abledon]

"""What kind of negative side-effects are you referring to?"""

When one enters that stage of yoga, if they've been a good little yogi and done the preliminary physical preparations (which may take decades (or you hit the jackpot and are born into a magnificent constitution, maybe a few years)), they can begin the real 'yoga', which is mainly just seated meditation. It is akin to performing surgery on the central nervous system and most importantly, its main channel running along the spinal column(shushumna).

If one is not prepared correctly, as an inexperienced surgon performing brain surgery, cutting the wrong cords or becoming stressed/frightened at the wrong time could be disasterous when operating on your subconscious autonomic nervous sytem (and even deeper!) there is a reason everyday humans cant control that stuff voluntarily!

joint damage etc pale in comparison to cutting the wrong wires on that low level state in the nervous system. Think voluntarily giving yourself psychosis or Multiple Sclerosis or launching a schizophrenic rogue subroutine in your body that randomly regulates temperature, making you icy cold one moment, pulling blankets over you, then burning hot 3 minutes later, as you run for the cool bathroom tile floor in the basement to lie down on.

But hey, what else are you going to do in life?

[manmal]

This sounds.. I don’t know, made up? Giving yourself MS by meditating? Isn’t it more likely that in such cases the vague nerve got damaged or a forgotten trauma reactivated? Do you have any references you can point me to?

[FiveDegrees]

MS is an autoimmune disorder. Claiming that you could voluntarily give yourself the condition through counterproductive meditation is emblematic of the general mystic nonsense of yogiism. You'll never be able to levitate, either.

[abledon]

Sorry, I wasn't "claiming" it gives a person MS, more so i used the word "Think" as a colloquial sentence starter to get the person's mindset visualizing how certain dis-eases can alter a nervous system's function. Esp at the later stages of the practice, usually after decades of sense refinement from body scanning.

[abledon]

yeah i didn't mean it literally! I thought starting the phrase with "Think X, Y" just to give a flavour of how one can mess up their internal nervous system functioning. Of course MS is different , but some of the symptoms that may arise from screwing up your kundalini energy: loss of control over nerves, involuntary shakes, toes locked in a curl for the rest of your life etc... just trying to give an overall view. language is so poor at communicating experience esp. when its dealing with inner transformation. Like the other comment says though, yes, watchout for charlatans and investigate the practice for yourself, never take a text at face value. goodluck with this lifetime's journey if you decide to heed the call.

[westoncb]

There are potential negative effects, but the above is... Well, yeah, here is some more legit info on the subject: https://www.nhs.uk/news/lifestyle-and-exercise/does-meditati...

[nsouth]

Gopi Krishna is the canonical worst-case scenario of an unprepared Kundalini awakening, so check out his "Kundalini: Evolutionary Energy in Man". I've heard that if you're careful, you should have an easier ride. However some people can have spontaneous awakenings, sometimes following traumatic (near death) events. One guy suggested there was a link between the adrenals and kicking off this process. The endocrine system is certainly involved.

But in general, symptoms can include some/all of the following, and vary in severity depending on how slowly you progress, how clean your lifestyle, etc:

* Energy surges - intense feelings of heat/electrical sensations in the body, typically in the spine (I've been woken in the past with electrical sensations surging through my body) * Dietary issues - one of the nerve passes near the stomach and apparently can alter appetite as well as making you intolerant to some foods (I read of one guy not being able to keep water down for several days), etc. * Sexual side effects - feeling intensely horny or totally disinterested * Insomnia * Headaches, feelings of congestion * Hallucinations - auditory, visual, kinesthetic * Spontaneous out of body experiences

Apparently these all settle down over time but can be a bit unsettling (e.g being woken in the night to ghoulish laughter, but there's nobody there).

On the plus side:

* Feelings of intense bliss/ecstasy, contentment * Mental clarity

I've only experienced a few of the above negative side effects, and generally only mildly. But the Supreme Fire exercise has kicked things up a gear. Plus, I'm almost able to perform "full khechari" (look it up). My body just wants to do it. Spontaneous yoga can happen sometimes. Your body knows what it wants given half a chance :-)

As for joint damage - yes that is a definite risk. Never force the lotus position since it can put pressure laterally on your knees which can damage them over time. Also, there's debate around inversions (who'd have thought putting your entire body weight through your cervical vertebrae could be damaging :-D?), so while some people say they're amazing, I avoid them.

As it turns out, one of the most useful sitting postures places direct pressure on the perineum. This is traditionally done with the heel (siddhasana) but can be done with a prosthetic. Roll a sock up and sit on that. I use that on a Zen-style meditation bench to spare my knees sometimes. So you don't need great flexibility, certainly not to the level of the hyper-flexible people in yoga magazines.

A lot of it is common sense - don't force yourself with either the physical postures, or breath retention, and listen to your body. You need to activate the parasympathetic nervous system and operate in that mode. The other thing to bear in mind is you can have a delayed reaction. So you might do some breath retention, and feel great. So you do more. And more. Then that night you get the congestion/headaches/insomnia. So just build up gradually over several weeks, and back off if you need to. It's no different to pacing yourself with weights at the gym.

The AYP site has a very helpful forum with people far further down the road than I am. If you're interested you'll find lots of information on that forum to peruse at your leisure, and a friendly community to answer questions.

[l_t]

Wow, sounds like some fascinating side effects (weirdly shroom-like, actually) that I definitely would not have expected. I guess they're vaguely related to "overstimulating" the parasympathetic nervous system.

I'm "into" mindfulness stuff as a mental exercise but now I'm feeling intrigued about experimenting with the breathing stuff (and generally the more physical aspects of Yoga) more. So thanks for the background and reading suggestions.

[nsouth]

Glad to help :-)

Yeah I think hallucinogens activate the same areas of the brain. The only 2 times I've ever felt totally, 100% contented was while tripping on shrooms and through meditation.

I went on a Zen retreat and asked the leader about whether they do energy stuff in Zen, and he just said "It happens on its own". I think all roads lead to Rome all traditions are basically teaching the same core practices. I think optimal results come from doing the breathing practices before mindfulness meditation. In fact, that's exactly what Patanjali wrote in his famous yoga sutras:

Physical postures (asanas) -> breathing (pranayama) -> introversion to progressively deeper degrees.

And once you understand the bigger picture, all the restrictions placed on monks make sense: conservation of semen for guys has a big impact (so either celibacy or tantric sexual practices), minimal diet (difficult to compress the abdomen if it's full of waste), waking early (there seems to be a connection with the circadian rhythm), silence seems to help, etc. Either way, there's plenty to experiment with. Good luck :-)

[nsouth]

There's also the book that started it for me: Path Notes of an American Ninja Master. The author's description of his awakening is pretty intense. It also contains important cautions, some of which he ignored. Worth reading if you're into chi kung, yoga, meditation or martial arts.

[mistrial9]

no - not like that .. intoxication is not the same as extraordinary function .. complex topic, not amenable to HN posts

[09bjb]

Wow, been digging into the AYP site. Thank you for passing this on. Some of the best stuff I've ever read, and I've read a LOT.

[nsouth]

Thanks for the thanks. I wasn't sure how this would be received on HN. They are the best lessons I've found, however I must admit that I think Mantak Chia's Multiorgasmic Man teaches the sex stuff better than Yogani's lessons. Plus it's a good idea learning how to bring the energy down the front as well through the Microcosmic Orbit.

[embwbam]

I don’t know what he was referring to but it’s really easy to get injured if you don’t take the time to learn. For example, you’re supposed to flex your foot whenever you’re doing something like lotus or it can hurt your knee