[vietnamese59]

My parents are Vietnamese. My dad actually fought in the war with the South Vietnamese army alongside US troops. He's a lifelong Republican, as were all of his brothers who also fought, as well as the vast majority of his friends and their families who arrived as refugees.

They supported the war. They saw the US as liberators against the communists who wanted to murder them and take over their country. They love America and despise communist Vietnam. They wish the US had finished the job.

Promoting things like the link above and conveniently omitting the pure savagery of the Viet Cong, Ho Chi Minh, and the communists from the North is pure propaganda. It's always puzzling to me what types of topics journalists choose to run.

Instead of listening to journalists reporting on Vietnam from half a world away, you should visit Little Saigon in Southern California and Northern California and ask them how they feel about America and the Vietnam War.

EDIT: Since I have a post limit and I can't reply below, I'll reply here.

quan: I didn't say My Lai was propaganda. I said emphasizing My Lai over the several atrocities committed by the communists, including the systematic murders of those who opposed communism, is propaganda.

[quan]

Same as your dad, five of my uncles fought in the war on the U.S. side, my grandfather and granduncle served in the South Vietnamese government in high positions. My family was persecuted after the war, many fled, the ones that stayed spent time in prison and fled after.

In college, I read a lot on the Vietnam war and learned about the Tet Offensive with the Hue massacre by the Vietcong, the Land Reform prior to that. But I don't see how the photos at My Lai is "pure propaganda." If you spend some time to learn about the tragic event you will find that there were a big cover up and for over 500 human lives lost, only one man was charged and subsequently pardoned.

The U.S. committed to a war when it didn't understand the people or history of Vietnam. Vietnam has a long history of fighting foreign invaders, and most people perceive the U.S. as such as they are just replacing the French when they withdrew after Dien Bien Phu in 1954. Till this day, most Vietnamese people consider China to be their biggest enemy even though the two countries share the same political ideology.

[system16]

To be fair, the Vietnamese communities in Southern California are stuck in a time bubble. Vietnam has changed dramatically since the Vietnam War (or War of American Aggression as it's called in Vietnam), but the Vietnamese diaspora's image of the country has not. It's not the same place, and the government - while nowhere near perfect - is not the same as it was 50 years ago. The country still has many problems, but it is getting better, and the country's youth have a very healthy skepticism of government (unlike mainland China).

Also, let's not try to paint the former South leadership as noble. Buddhists weren't self-immolating in the streets of Saigon because of the communists, and the victim in the infamous photo being shot at point blank in the head was a Viet Cong.

[vietnamese59]

You're using two data points when hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese civilians were systematically slaughtered by Ho Chi Minh and his comrades. The propaganda is strong when the general public knows more about the head shot photo than the mass murders committed by communist Vietnamese regime.

[lostlogin]

To the victims the political colour of one murderous child rapist probably doesn’t matter that much.

A more neutral viewpoint could see the whole war as a series of gross violations and crimes.

[namelost]

I'm sorry but the actions of the Viet Cong do not excuse the crimes committed the US, and neither does the nationality of your parents.

To this day, many are maimed and killed by US land mines in the region, and the US does not give a shit.

[vietnamese59]

You're setting up a straw man to an argument I never made. All I'm telling you is how my dad, his brothers, and the vast majority of his first generation Vietnamese friends (who arrived as refugees) feel about America and the Vietnam War. Despite what you may think, they wholeheartedly support America.

If you don't believe me, you should try visiting Little Saigon on Bolsa Avenue in Orange Country and ask them what they think of the USA. Look at the flags they use (South Vietnam and the USA). If you want to get assaulted (I highly don't recommend this), try bringing Vietnam's current flag and parade it around.

EDIT:

to andrepd: Again, you keep setting up straw man arguments. It's very easy to attack someone if you misrepresent their views. I never said anything about excusing massacres.

[NotSammyHagar]

I think you didn't mean it, from your later comments, but you came across as saying we shouldn't only talk about My Lai because the other side did bad things too. Yes, they did bad things, but it doesn't excuse us. We claim we are better. Just like in the Iraq War 2 and our prisons where we treated people horribly, it doesn't excuse it just because someone else also did bad things. I think that's a core principal.

It doesn't lessen the horror of atrocities if the other side did it.

[candiodari]

> We claim we are better.

That's exactly the point made. The US IS better. Better than the Nazis, better than North Vietnam/Vietnam, better than China (and frankly better than all European states during and immediately after WWI/II at least). Better than North Korea. Better than South Africa.

With better I mean "how people are treated", in the human rights, in general, and only as part of government policy.

And yes, I agree. The US has it's downsides. The US has made mistakes. The difference between a mistake and a government policy is the number of times and the scale at which it happens, and the intent. The US has made mistakes, some of which lead to the death of hundreds, even thousands of people. Some of those mistakes involved the military. It was NOT the intent of any significant fraction of the US to make these events happen.

China, Vietnam, and Germany had a widely supported-by-the-people government policy of massacre. Every organisation in those countries is focused and involved in oppressing and massacring people for some reason. Vietnam's CURRENT government made children watch their own parents getting raped, slowly, and killed, then used them as insane soldier-killers sending them into defenseless villages where they brutally murdered everyone they could. This is NOT a one-off. They did this to children for decades.

The difference is indescribable and it is absurd to even compare the two. They are not on the same moral level, they just aren't. We are better than that, it's just that simple.

That's objectively so, and for some reason a lot of people feel the need to destroy historical views like this.

It may not lessen atrocities on the other side, but we should acknowledge the difference between mistakes and popular government-supported genocide.

Equating them does nothing, other than provide cover for these massacres. Hell, the amount of people talking up Chinese policy seems to be mounting every day. And, of course, the situation of people in China gets worse everytime some high up in the Chinese government thinks censorship is good enough that they can get away with something more.

It pains me to point out the obvious: "anti-racism" has become the leading excuse for racism, inequality and state-based massacres.

[simonh]

Ive looked carefully through he comments here and nobody is making any false equivalency In the terms you describe, or denying what you say about the US overall.

I don’t see why an article or subsequent discussion about a horrible crime committed by US soldiers, subject to an attempted coverup by the US army and limply prosecuted afterwards needs to also say how nice the US is otherwise. It doesn’t matter how nice it is otherwise. It’s got nothing to do with the issue at hand, any more than if it had happened in any other country.

[candiodari]

Really ? I get that message very strongly just looking at the very post above me (and the other comments by the same user in the same thread).

[NotSammyHagar]

I'm not saying there is an equivalence between the nazis and modern day us. I am just pointing out that when we do horrible things, we have to not deny it, not say it's not a big deal because someone else did something worse. We aren't equivalent, but we do make mistakes.

[sho]

> try visiting Little Saigon on Bolsa Avenue in Orange Country

> If you want to get assaulted [..] try bringing Vietnam's current flag and parade it around

What a bizarre argument. Of course you're going to find pro-USA sentiment in the very people who decided to move to the USA. I hope you realise that the opinions of a few immigrants in the states are going to be pretty unrepresentative of those who actually live in, you know, Vietnam.

Speak to actual vietnamese people from actual vietnam and I don't think you'll find they are overwhelmingly pro-USA, nor at all interested in the flag of south vietnam. I'm no expert, but my experience is that they're mildly positive in attitude, mostly due to pop culture. The war was a long time ago and most people are just getting on with their lives.

Many immigrant communities foster a kind of "nostalgic nationalism" as a coping strategy when adapting to a profoundly different environment. It dates pretty rapidly. I very much doubt many of the 90+ million people in Vietnam even know of "Little Saigon", nor care overmuch about the opinions of a bunch of old-timers sitting in a mall in California.

[refurb]

Actually, Vietnam is one of the most pro-American countries in the world. There was a survey a while and over 90% view the US favorably. You can find it with a google search.

[rangibaby]

That is more to do with China than America though

[refurb]

Some of it is, but some of it is that many VIetnamese went to the US after the at and so their family is there and they can see firsthand the benefits of living in the US.

Also Vietnamese are fiercely capitalistic. I've never seen a more go-getter attitude in any other country. That also colors their perception of the US.

[andrepd]

Well thank you for that comprehensive study. I guess we shouldn't worry about the massacre anymore -.-

[JoeAltmaier]

"The US" no longer uses anti-personnel mines outside the Korean DMZ (which is actually managed by the South Koreans). The US does not deploy them anywhere, and hasn't for years.

Maybe its India and Pakistan we're thinking of, hm?

[sailingparrot]

Did you really think she/he was suggesting that the US is setting up landmines in Vietnam 50 years after the war? Landmines can kill people a very long time after being deployed you know...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/18/vietnam-unexpl...

[JoeAltmaier]

So you really think people 50 years ago are 'the US'? That was my point. Thus the highlight.

[simonh]

Do you really think the US government bears no responsibility for the actions of the US government 50 years ago and the consequences today? Would you extend that to other governments too? In what circumstances would you not? What Cut off period do you think is right generally?

For example do you think the US has no responsibility towards Pacific Islanders whose islands are now lethally radioactive due to nuclear tests 50 years ago, and can reasonably wash its hands of any problems arising from that today?

[rangibaby]

The ones that were deployed during the Vietnam war are still there and hurting people

[kss238]

The comment was about mines left behind from the Vietnam war, not present day.

[JoeAltmaier]

Actually the comment was about present-day 'the US'.

[mtarnovan]

Present-day US should care, and they should do something about it. The mines they layed 50 years ago still kill people today.

[xenophonf]

I can't claim to be directly responsible for the actions of my countrymen fifty years ago, but not doing anything about their misdeeds today gives my tacit approval to those past actions and to their ongoing costs so unfairly burdening present-day Vietnamese. Plus, I think it would be a nice bit of diplomacy for the U.S. to fund mine clearing efforts in Vietnam.

[Erlangolem]

Just one point: there is no, “The US” as I’ve learned over time. The US is geographically vast, and full of hundreds of millions of people from wildly different backgrounds. Those poeple have politics ranging from Ghengis Khan, to Ghandi. They seem to agree, as a nation, on very little.

[maxxxxx]

That is true for every country so it doesn't add anything to the discussion.

[Erlangolem]

Have you ever been to Iceland? Sweden is remarkably united in their politics as well. Japan is much less politically and culturally diverse than most US states. Few countries are as geographically large and populous as the US either, even before you work in hundreds of years of immigration.

I don’t appreciate your shallow dismissal.

[maxxxxx]

I have lived in Germany and the US each for years and for months in several other countries. From the outside or on a short visit all countries look homogeneous. Only after a while you see the subtleties. From that perspective I don't think the US is any different from other countries. Maybe other countries are in agreement on things that are contentious in the US but then they have other issues that never get discussed in the US. In short, the US is nothing special. It's a country like every other country and should be treated as such.

[Erlangolem]

I disagree, but I can’t see the value in pitting anecdote against anecdote. If you want to believe that the US’ history, geography, and demographics make it essentially the same as (to use my examples) Iceland, Japan, and Sweden, I doubt that I could change your mind.

[andrepd]

Maybe we should ask what Soviets think of their regime (most of them supported it, and still more people prefer the Soviet Union to Putin right now). That doesn't make their regime any more or less good.

And how does the "other side" committing atrocities excuse your own atrocities?? That's an appalling way to attempt to self justify.

[vietnamese59]

Hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese who opposed communism had their lives slaughtered. What is even remotely equivalent committed by the "other side"?

EDIT to andrepd, since I can't reply to you because of post limit: You're using straw man arguments and I can't keep up. I don't know anything about East Timor but by "other side", I meant the US and South Vietnam. We're obviously discussing the Vietnam War and the participants involved and you're going off on a tangent that makes it impossible to have any debate with you.

[andrepd]

Are you serious right now? Do you want me to pick an example, any example? How about this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Timor_genocide

US financed, supported, armed and gave the okay for the decimation of over 1/4 of the population of East Timor. Their crime? They were looking dangerously close to electing a left-wing government... Oh, and some mining companies may have lobbied Congress to stay on Indonesia's good side, since they had mining interests there (but this, I admit, is more speculative).

How about Guatemala? How about Iran for Christ's sake? How many thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of people's blood is on the hands of US imperialism?

[subpixel]

Ken Burn's recent series on Vietnam is very well made and speaks with participants and stakeholders from across the ideological spectrum. Highly recommended: https://www.netflix.com/title/70202579

[vietnamese59]

I know it's a popular series, and I haven't gotten my dad's response to it because he hasn't watched it, but many war veterans and South Vietnamese military members say it's not a very balanced documentary.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/09/29/veterans-angry-disapp...

https://www.military.com/off-duty/television/2017/10/02/vete...

[lostlogin]

It’s almost like the veterans have a difficult time being objective. I’ll wait for your dad’s review before getting too critical though.

[refurb]

Are you sure? I've watched a bit of it and it seems to approach the war with 20/20 hindsight. "Oh of course it was wrong to be there".

It ignores some of the mindset that got us there in the first place.

[lostlogin]

It would be interesting to compare the views of those conscripted versus those that voluntarily signed up.

[NotSammyHagar]

You have a lot of informed opinions because of course you were close to the war and your family was. I hope to see you continue to share your ideas, even if you are suffering some criticism.

[candiodari]

Oh come on. Look at the series. You can say what you want but it is extremely biased. It takes about 30 seconds for it to call the war a mistake, and it doesn't get better from there.

[simonh]

I’m sorry, but this is blatant whataboutism. The crimes of the Vietnamese Communists are inexcusable, but so was My Lai. The linked article was simply an American media article about something the American military did. We should be able to discuss it purely in those terms.

What another army did somewhere else to other people simply isn’t pertinent in that context, even if in the same war, unless it directly relates to the circumstances at My Lai and the reasons for it happening. You aren’t saying VC atrocities excuse My Lai, or that they caused My a Lai, so how are they relevant? What context do they add to the decisions made by those American soldiers or the army cover up or subsequent investigation? I just don’t see how it would have helped the article other than to muddy and obscure the issues of discipline and accountability in the US military the massacre raises and which the article discusses.

The responsibility of the VC for their actions just isn’t a necessary part of that dialogue and is an important and necessary subject, but for another time and place. At time and place in which massacres carried out elsewhere by Americans also simply wouldn’t be relevant, nor excuse anything done by the VC. And no I’m not making any false equivalency. That’s the point.