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by tischler 3033 days ago
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3 comments

The liberation of women has basically caused a diffusion of responsibility of communal tasks...Yeah, so maybe it was actually a bad idea.

Well, heck, you could say the same thing for Capitalism, which has also benefited billions materially. Liberation is bound to cause social disruption. The problem isn't the liberation. It's how society needs to (re)organize itself around change. It's ossification in how society views itself, which may exist in the older, traditional part, as well as in newer conceptions. The problem is ideological rigidity, which can be found in both the religious right and the secular left. You shouldn't be rigid when it's time to adjust.

I think this is right. The problem is people being forced or coerced to do things that don't actually make them happy. An ideological rigidity about expectations. But this tribalism is what makes human beings human. We're not going to get rid of that anytime soon, at least not without fundamentally changing the nature of the human animal. The best we can do is tell people "Prefer doing things that make you happy" and hope they don't commit their lives, careers, families, etc. to things that don't make them happy. And make "happiness discovery" much easier by changing the way we educate our young. Perhaps also it would help to give people an easy way out of things they don't enjoy doing? Kinda hard if those "things" are marriages or children, so I'm not sure how feasible it is.
this tribalism is what makes human beings human.

It's perfectly reasonable to construct a tribalism which aids in discovering the truth. Science itself is an example.

The best we can do is tell people "Prefer doing things that make you happy" and hope they don't commit their lives, careers, families, etc. to things that don't make them happy.

One of the best things we can do, is to have many non-exceptional role models, on which younger generations can make incremental improvements. What's needed isn't a whole-cloth re-imagining of the entire social reality. We need a kind of progressive traditionalism, where people can try and evolve towards a better society without dropping complex cultural systems which create value and human well-being.

Perhaps also it would help to give people an easy way out of things they don't enjoy doing? Kinda hard if those "things" are marriages or children, so I'm not sure how feasible it is.

I think it's far better to make people aware of the "price" up front, so such deep commitments are made by people who are ready.

I think people underestimate the inherent conflict that arises from the complex cultural systems you're talking about. I mean, obviously there is conflict, but I think it's way more intrinsic to our species than most people believe. And the conflict reinforces existing belief structures, stereotypes about outgroup members, and is then used to justify proliferating or escalating the conflict further. I agree with you that tribal constructs like science are a positive social development. And for example Stoicism and Taoism seem to be aimed squarely at reducing the inherent conflict of tribalism. I like the idea of making the costs more visible up front, and would definitely make that a part of the "happiness discovery" process of education.

With respect to creating positive and beneficial social systems, however, I'm personally of the opinion that the basics of social development are already nearly fully enumerated, and I think we're not going to stumble across something new which would do a better job than the things that we already know about. I'd love to be wrong, though. And so if what I'm saying is true, then it would seem to point back to education.

I also have a personal saying that "shared hardship is the key to utopia" but certainly it would seem that education is equally key. Like Will Durant said: "Education is the transmission of civilization". That being said, "One test is worth a thousand expert opinions" and nothing is better at teaching the lesson that war is hell and should not be undertaken lightly than a good old fashioned war (e.g. the Long Peace). Ah, but now here is the main reason I think a human hivemind would truly bring us into a kind of shining Star Trek utopia: I could just share my wartime memories and combat experiences with people that haven't been to war. That would certainly work to turn people off of it. I really kinda went off on a tangent here, sorry!

However, I'm personally of the opinion that the basics of social development are already nearly fully enumerated, and I think we're not going to stumble across something new which would do a better job than the things that we already know about.

Why would you say that? Other than broad outlines, there are not so many constants in ways of life across history and around the world. Or, are you talking about broad outlines?

I also have a personal saying that "shared hardship is the key to utopia" but certainly it would seem that education is equally key.

My take is that Utopia == Neverland. It's like infinity. It's a useful concept, but you'll never have it physically realized within your grasp.

So, I'm not going to get too much into semantics because it's not interesting, and we could grind on it forever. But the essence of social interaction and group dynamics has hundreds of thousands of years of permutation behind it, and I'm pretty confident that human beings aren't going to come up with a new way of reducing friction at the interfaces of its tribalism without changing the definition of human being. The definition which includes what it means to be a human individual or a group, or what it means to communicate between human individuals and groups.
Another reason you cannot revert is that many women will fight you as much as they can to not revert to 1960 era. The idea is scary, I would much rather have you lonely then me being women in 1960.

Sacrificing confidence, feeling like I am actually capable, social status, ability to be independent and all that in exchange to emptiness of lonely largely pointless household work and forced dependence sounds like bad deal.

The world in 1950 was very different to today. Find it amazing someone is brave enough to claim gender equality was the sole cause for half the population being subjectively sadder as recorded by a wide array of surveys conducted to various standards.

Why not blame modern marketing techniques, the rise of human interaction replacing technology or leaded petrol while we're at it.

The correalations are all there and just as valid.