[antisthenes]

Stop trying to make it a race and gender issue. It helps no one but the rentier class to further divide the people they are extracting profit from.

What wealth 'class' you are born into has by far the biggest effect on your chance of success.

[mtgex]

But it is a race and gender issue. I'm not trying to divide people, just stating facts.

Attaining wealth is much easier if you're born into a specific race, thus your chances of being born wealthy are directly correlated with your chances of being white.

Attaining wealth is much easier if you're male. Among the many reasons are increased career opportunities in general, less chance of a stalled career because of child rearing, greater status in negotiations, etc.

All I'm saying is it is incredibly lucky to be born a white male in a society which so highly values them, and try as hard you might, you can't position yourself to get that advantage if you weren't born with it.

[askafriend]

Stop doing this. It is a factor - no one denies that, but it is only one of many factors.

You're trying to elevate one factor above others and derailing the higher conversation people are trying to have here. It's just not productive.

[mtgex]

Many people deny this, so I think it is an important part of the higher conversation and inherently productive to discuss.

People tend to think luck is heavily about positioning yourself to succeed.

I think that's true, but I also believe that the most important factors to putting you in those lucky positions are not in your control.

Someone who is not already born into a lucky position has to get even more lucky to succeed.

You telling me to simply stop talking about something that I believe is an important point to make is very strange.

[ThrowAway3456]

> Many people deny this Maybe, but nobody brought it up before you did.

>People tend to think luck is heavily about positioning >yourself to succeed.

>I think that's true, but I also believe that the most >important factors to putting you in those lucky positions >are not in your control.

>Someone who is not already born into a lucky position has >to get even more lucky to succeed.

That we all agree on, what we disagree on is you trying to elevate race above all other uncontrollable factors in ones life. I don't know if it's true or not, but you probably don't have the data to back that assertion up.

> You telling me to simply stop talking about something that I believe is an important point to make is very strange.

Because we are trying to have a civil and deep discourse about an important subject . Any social issue under the sun can be related to racial issue, from violence to education level to health; It's doesn't mean that adopting a racial frame is the best way of discussing,reflecting and solving those issues. We aren't even sure to which part race is a causing vs a correlating factor. What we do know however is that race is such a polarizing subject (in the US at least) that trying to shoehorn race into a debate is a sure way to derail it. Not to mentioned the blatant disrespect to all the other type of human experience that somehow you think are worst than being black in america (mental health and devellopmentale issue for example, and yes see we can all play the game of who as it worst...)...

So ultimately it's not that race is not important, it's that it's not a useful frame for every subject.

And yes i am black, and on my wish list of stuff i want to change about myself higher social status, more money, higher overall sexual attractiveness come way before race...

[mtgex]

I am having a civil discourse and did not intend to cause a polarization.

You cannot discuss luck and success in life without discussing race.

In no way did I suggest that people should want to change their race.

[frgtpsswrdlame]

Having a black doctor for a parent probably provides more benefit than having a white dockworker for a parent. That's the point of the comment above. Similarly for being the daughter of rich couple or the son of a poor couple.

[tacomonstrous]

>Having a black doctor for a parent probably provides more benefit than having a white dockworker for a parent.

Sure, but having a white doctor for a parent is very likely more beneficial than both of those examples. This should not be a very controversial point.

[frgtpsswrdlame]

Yes being white and rich is better than being black and rich, the point is about where benefit is coming from. The idea is that being white and rich is better than being black and rich but being black and rich is much better than being white and poor. Race, gender, all these things play a role but their influence is totally swamped by the influence of class.

[tacomonstrous]

Your argument would only hold water if distribution of wealth were independent of race. On the contrary, it is intimately intertwined with it. Race is the fundamental foundational rift that the nation constructed itself on, and it had better bring its primary focus to it.

[mtgex]

Yes of course, but I don't believe that's what the commenter was talking about.

The comment said it is not a race or gender issue, which I disagree with.

[iamcasen]

While I believe you're right, wealth is the biggest factor, I would say race is probably the next biggest, and gender the next biggest after that. At least here in the USA.