[Consultant32452]

I think it's important to come up with some hard and fast rules pretty quickly and make sure it's clear to everyone. There was some pretty crappy stuff in those stories. At the same time, we need to be sympathetic to people who make mildly insensitive mistakes but at least appear to be trying to do the right thing.

For example, there's a difference between some of those guys getting physically aggressive and the one guy who basically said he'd never worked with a woman and didn't know how to talk to her.

Is the latter example okay? No, not really, but we must find a way to not lump that guy in with the physically aggressive guy. The second guy appears to be simply ignorant, but at least open minded enough to admit ignorance and try to awkwardly break the ice to move forward cooperatively.

Men and women have only worked together for about 40 years, which in anthropological/cultural time is basically nothing. We haven't figured out the rules yet. Is dating colleagues completely banned? Doubtful. That means we're going to have to accept some awkwardness between people who are trying to figure out if they like each other. But we can simultaneously say it's inappropriate to grope someone, it's not okay to call someone the "token" whatever, etc.

[rubidium]

Men and women have worked together for thousanda of years... not sure what you mean by the first part of the statement.

[fouc]

He's making a reference to women joining the modern work force in the western world since WW2.

It's not quite the same thing as how men and women worked together historically. There was probably more segregation back then too (and rampant sexism).

[Consultant32452]

Exactly this. Labor has been largely gender-segregated since before our tribal origins.

[rosser]

> Is the latter example okay? No, not really, but we must find a way to not lump that guy in with the physically aggressive guy.

Yes, it's important not to conflate those two very different behaviors. At the same time, however, we need to recognize that both are symptoms of the same underlying issue — and that's the thing that we ultimately have to change, not its case-specific behavioral expressions.

"Not as bad as" is a fallacy.

[Consultant32452]

My point is that the "I don't know how to talk to you" guy is participating in the conversation of how we move towards equality. It's as important to be sensitive to confused likely allies as it is to be sensitive to victims of inequality. Obviously you don't know a person by just a couple lines of a story, but it seems very likely he wants to be a positive influence he just doesn't know what to do. It's so very important to assist him in taking the right path while avoiding condemnation. Pointing at him and calling him the same names we call the physically aggressive guys is going to be counter-productive. It's just as easy to consider him part of the problem as it is to consider him a likely part of the solution whose ignorance is the result of the problem.

[rosser]

I think we're agreeing past one another here. I'm merely encouraging looking at these different behaviors, which of course warrant different responses, from a broader perspective. That keeps us in mind of why we're engaging with them differently — to guide how we do that.

Maybe that's implicit in what you're saying, but I think it's likely to be more effective when considered consciously. It frames how we think about the interaction.

[Consultant32452]

I don't believe they warrant just different responses, but opposite responses. The opening line of the article makes it clear that this encounter is placed squarely under the label of sexist. It sucks to be a de-facto ambassador because you're in the minority, but any time a person starts a conversation by openly admitting their ignorance and making it clear they want to move forward in a positive way should be counted as a win. This type of interaction is an essential and positive step in our transition towards equality. Scoffing at him by responding, "just talk to me like a person" or having all of us label him a sexist is going to do nothing but shut him down and turn away a likely ally.

We need something else to call this guy other than sexist. Something at least slightly positive like likely ally.

[rosser]

I'm curious why you use "scoffing" when The Fine Article simply says "suggested" to describe the manner of her response. What, in her two-sentence account of this experience, suggests she was overtly dismissive of his efforts?

[Consultant32452]

Overt is strong, but it does seem dismissive. And the fact that it's listed in her experiences of having to deal with sexism makes it clear how the interaction was perceived.