[vinceguidry]

> There’s no guarantee for perfect prevention of injury,

That's the crux of the issue. Without such a guarantee, I will never train with barbells again. It boils down to a difference in priorities. You, and Rip, both seem to think soft tissue injury is an acceptable risk in the quest for strength gains. I do not.

Again, look at a table saw. People can use a table saw their entire lives without introducing a body part to a spinning blade. But you can't train with a barbell, with any amount of good form, with any kind of specialized program, with any kind of expertise at hand, and be 100% positive you will avoid injury.

[grzm]

> "That's the crux of the issue. Without such a guarantee"

I actually meant that very generally. Any physical effort that's going to build muscle has risks: you're applying force somehow and there's a chance for that force to be misapplied and cause injury. The two exceptions I thought of are yoga and swimming (both of which I've also done on occasion).

That said, to each his own. I'm pretty conservative when it comes to the possibility of injuring myself, and I honestly don't think lifting free weights is inherently risky when one pays attention to technique and one's own condition (both in general and during a workout), which is true of any sport or fitness program. But if it doesn't appeal to you or you don't perceive the risks as I do, I'm sure you'll find something that meets your needs.

[vinceguidry]

> I'm pretty conservative when it comes to the possibility of injuring myself, and I honestly don't think lifting free weights is inherently risky when one pays attention to technique and one's own condition (both in general and during a workout), which is true of any sport or fitness program.

I used to think the same way that you do. But I had a trainer. I was not doing the exercises incorrectly. I was not going too fast. I went well above and beyond the standards most people take for safety. And I still got injured. There are no further precautions I could have taken. Ergo, barbell strength training is inherently risky.

Rip is very clear in his book when he says you have to follow the program. He states in very strong language that the program works and if you deviate from it, you're on your own.

I am sure you have had soft tissue injuries that took weeks to months to heal as a matter of course when strength training. You may have looked at those injuries as part and parcel of building athleticism. I don't. I look at them as a sign that you are going past your body's abilities. The domain of elite athletes and competitors. They should have to worry about injuries.

I should be able to train without worry. But I can't. Because it's inherently risky. There's no course of action that you can take in order to train without risk. And it will stay that way until we can come to a full understanding of how soft tissues act under stresses.

[grzm]

Sir, I also have had trainers, as well as others I trained with. Yes, I've have soft tissue injuries. My most severe soft tissue injuries where obtained playing softball. I am particularly cautious with my left knee, as I injured it running, and knees are particularly susceptible to injury in a variety of lifts. Yet, somehow, I've never further injured it lifting (other than taking a day off or two), and that includes squats (ass to grass), deadlifts, cleans, snatches, and bench. By paying attention to how I was lifting, and my condition, and when my form started to become compromised due to exhaustion, I laid off, forgoing the remainder of a workout, perhaps taking a rest day or two, or sometimes even safely dumping during a lift and walking away.

I don't think this is luck: I think this is prudence. Elsewhere you mention you don't think form is key. I know how important it is to keep my knees behind my toes if I'm to properly protect them, and endeavor to always do so. That's form. And it's important. I'm keenly aware of how long it takes to properly heal connective tissue and I'm not willing to unnecessarily risk that. Yet, I lift. And I think I lift safely. My experience has shown that to be the case for me. As for soft-tissue injuries taking weeks or months to heal, no, I've never had such as a result of lifting (and rarely other times). And that's not me working through the pain or whatnot. I'm not that kind of lifter at all. Perhaps I'm not pushing myself hard enough? I'd rather say I'm wisely not pushing myself to injury.

If you find fault with Mark Rippletoe or Starting Strength, fine. Personally, if I find some training regimen that doesn't make sense to me, I don't do it, while recognizing that others might find value in it. I also wouldn't follow a regimen blindly, and, as the quote from Rippletoe I pulled, I have a hard time believing he would think doing so is the only or best way. Regardless, if you want to lift (and I don't think that's the only option), there are other programs out there you might follow, or use as a basis for creating your own.

If you think there are no further precautions you could have taken, fine. I know people are fallible. I'm not perfect, and my trainers haven't been perfect, but together we've been able to train successfully. I know people get injured in all manner of sports, including lifting, for all variety of reasons. Two of the guys I lifted with got injured; one never paid much attention to his form and after he was injured acknowledged his injury was a result of that. Another, while paying attention to form, was always pushing himself, and injured himself lifting heavier than he should have. These are both examples of what happens when you ignore form and your own condition. I suspect you'll take those as examples as lifting being inherently risky. I take them as object lessons of the importance of form and paying attention.

I also know people have all kinds of choices and preferences. You can't even guarantee that you won't badly twist your ankle walking on flat ground, much less down the stairs carrying a load of books, or throwing your back out shoveling snow.

I'm not sure what you've chosen to do in place of lifting, but I certainly hope you find something that you're comfortable with. I find it puzzling that you've throughout this thread (and not only with me) chosen only to find fault with lifting without spending any time describing alternatives you find acceptable, while I (and others) have brought up other choices. I don't think lifting is the end-all be-all, nor is it for everyone. Above you mention you want to lift. People have given you advice on how you might lift safely. If you aren't convinced, I don't think that's skin off of any of our noses. But please don't rail against what others have found useful and enjoyable just because you haven't found success or satisfaction.

As I don't think I've said so explicitly, let me say outright that I'm sorry you've been injured. That sucks. I sincerely hope you find a training regimen that works for you and that you are injury free going forward. Best to you.