[bittermang]

Last time I was in Detroit the roads were the worst I'd ever seen. You couldn't even call them pot holes, they were just scars in the earth. For a place nicknamed The Motor City, it was a sad state of affairs.

And that's the crux of it. It's not just the money, in fact it's never the money for me. It's a total quality of life scenario. Being across a bridge from Windsor Canada is cool, the Detroit museum is a great place, and the area has a great lineage for quality pizza. But Detroit itself is like a hostile environment to me, where I can't even travel around without risking breaking my vehicle literally in half. I'd have to me making great money there, just to pay upkeep on vehicle maintenance.

[tachyoff]

To be fair, and I don’t know when you were last here, Detroit is somewhat slowly improving. Some of the roads are still terrible, but that’s Michigan in general (I have some friends in the suburbs, and when I visit them, I specifically avoid certain problematic roads that have left me asking if I permanently damaged my car).

The real bugbear is insurance, which is a state policy issue (poor, white areas are starting to be hit by it too). My car insurance in the city is higher than my car payment (by about $100). Yes, it’s insane. I have good credit and I’m a good driver, but no-fault insurance and unlimited medical coverage makes it superbly expensive to insure Michiganders. If anything would make me move back to the suburbs, it’s actually the car insurance. Everything else I don’t really mind.

Otherwise, you have to take Detroit for all it is, both its faults and its treasures. Yes, street flooding is a problem and the schools are still not great, but property is cheap and some neighborhoods are recovering. You can get a mansion for $500k to $800k (in SF you would get a shoe box). And if you want the cheapest, most delicious donuts you’ve ever had, swing by Dutch Girl on Woodward and Seven Mile. They’re open 24/7.

It’s not for everyone, but it’s unique, and has 300 years of fascinating history. It’s not the war zone you see on the news either. Don’t write off Detroit just yet. :)

[eckza]

Definitely lost a fucking tire to a pothole yesterday morning at Fischer and Springwells at 30mph.

I drive that road every day. Just happened to be in the wrong lane.

(We are getting there... but we have a long way to go.)

[commandlinefan]

I grew up there. As bad as it might have been when you were there, you should try going in the wintertime. Orders of magnitude worse. You couldn't pay me enough to go back there.

[ghaff]

But, assuming you just hate winter/snow, you've just described the entire northern tier of the US that's not right on the West Coast. Which is of course your prerogative. I'm just not terribly sympathetic to arguments that life isn't livable outside of the Bay Area because of the weather.

[tachyoff]

I somewhat hate winter, but I like seasons; they give a nice tempo to life. Personally, I’d rather have snow than earthquakes, wildfires, mudslides, tornadoes, and hurricanes, which the rest of the country gets some combination of. Michigan, though? Maybe there’s a tornado in the hinterlands once in a while, but otherwise it’s just the occasional blizzard, and that’s hardly life-threatening for most. Plus, we’re surrounded by fresh water.

[da_chicken]

If you stay away from the west side of the state, you'll even avoid most lake effect snow.

[microcolonel]

> But, assuming you just hate winter/snow, you've just described the entire northern tier of the US that's not right on the West Coast. Which is of course your prerogative. I'm just not terribly sympathetic to arguments that life isn't livable outside of the Bay Area because of the weather.

I think what he was getting at was that a northern winter makes the infrastructure problems considerably worse. Potholes big enough to bathe a toddler can be hidden by snow, and snowplows don't operate regularly and efficiently on roads where they are at serious risk of destroying an axle, wheel, or tire on any given day; and even if they could dodge the potholes, they couldn't clear the snow where it counts! If our road infrastructure here in Toronto, or my previous city, Calgary, were any more poorly maintained, winter could make life considerably harder for those who can't afford to travel by foot.

I recently had a ride on what IIRC our ministry of transport has deemed the worst maintained road in the country, and it's better than 50% of the roads near Pittsburgh, and in my (old, 2011-2012-ish) experience, better than 80% of the roads in Detroit. I can not imagine snow on these roads making life any easier.

[CyberDildonics]

Detroit is actually a pretty cool place in a lot of ways but the streets as you mentioned are absolutely terrible. On top of how torn up they are, there is practically no light on the street. A few dim street lights scatter much too far apart gives you major arteries where you can barely see anything. Then there is the fact that the actual design of the streets is terrible, with lots of odd mechanics you don't see anywhere else, one way streets, and the old 'michigan left' (turn right, then find a place to turn around.

[danans]

> and the area has a great lineage for quality pizza

What lineage are you referring to? Domino's and Little Caesars? (Both are headquartered in the area). They are perfectly edible, but I've never heard those described as representing a "quality pizza" lineage.

[burkemw3]

There is also [Detroit-style pizza][]. Buddy's is great. I've enjoyed Emmy Squared in NYC, and I'm looking to make one following the [Serious Eats guide][] sometime this year.

[Detroit-style pizza]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit-style_pizza

[Serious Eats guide]: http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2017/02/detroit-style-piz...

[segmondy]

Detroit has great foods. For great places to eat, trust that you have never heard of them. Not nationwide chains. There are tons of random hole in the wall joint with amazing food. You just have to know them usually through luck or referral because you could walk past them many times and not know there's amazing food in there.

[danans]

I'm from the area, so I definitely know that there is great food there, from little local delis to the best middle eastern food in the US.

I'm just not aware of a great local pizza tradition. And for me personally, Buddy's Detroit-style pizza (I grew up eating it) doesn't meet that standard.

[tropo]

Suppose that The Motor City wanted to help the local car industry. Would they build roads that favor keeping a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry for 20 years, or would they build roads that require yearly purchase of a huge SUV or a full-size AWD pickup truck?

[weirdkid]

Or, it's the sandy base you get when geographically surrounded by water. Or, it's the laws that removed weight limits for the trucking industry. Or, it's the lack of funds in poor areas. Or, it's the extreme changes in temperature combined with high water tables and wet weather. Or, it's a combination of all the above.

[smashingfiasco]

It's a combination. Plus it seems like the region has replaced manufacturing with never-ending construction.

I don't live in Detroit, I'm nearby in Toledo.

[jdhn]

Trust me, when it comes to road infrastructure, there is no conspiracy to help the Big 3. The amount of broken down vehicles that I see on the sides of the roads due to tire issues spans domestic & foreign brands. If there's a conspiracy, it's a conspiracy to benefit body shops and tire/rim manufacturers.

[kdot]

Michigan is have a somewhat state of emergency due to the poor road conditions, pot holes everywhere.