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by foodislove 3050 days ago
I wonder if the title is intentional. The "great leap forward" was a failed economic and social policy where the communists decided to fast forward development by skipping directly to industrialization. It didn't quite work and tens of millions of people died of famine as a result.

What the article actually says, is that China is investing a lot in basic science. What is true is that while the quality of research per researcher in China is not that high, the sheer investment and focus coupled with quantity has led to a lot of scientific progress.

My father is part of that thousand research program to lure specialists back to China. Having seen how he works in China compared to Australia, what the real advantage China has for researchers is that they give virtual free reign and all the resources needed (read: $$$, labs and all the grad students you want) to conduct research.

For those who've never worked in academia, even though there is more academic freedom outside of China, there are whole loads of red tape (mostly well-intentioned) that slow things down. For example, at Princeton, any social science experiment involving people requires a panel to approve the ethics. A similar experiment in a Chinese university does not have the same requirements. Even if they did on paper, it would not be as rigorous.

The same goes for expenditures. I remember my father complaining years ago about how for an Australian research project, spending research money on a special type of computer required additional approval even though the money for research was already granted. That's not the case in China.

The net effect is that shockingly enough, the Chinese have managed to create almost a startup-like sandbox environment for researchers. In fields, particularly biotech, where there are ethical, and other red-tape considerations, the Chinese have an edge in producing results faster.

Of course, this just means to get one cloned monkey, hundreds of independent teams mostly likely inhumanely murdered many multiples of monkeys to get to this result.

What is important is to realize that for the Chinese, this sort of Stanlinist "only the results matter" approach is perfectly acceptable, if not encouraged. Most people would balk at the ethical and human cost, I know I do, but there is no doubt that it provides an advantage to Chinese scientists over those in the developed world. Multiply in the sheer number of Chinese scientists and you have results. Progress at any cost.

5 comments

It sounds like the ethical review you’re talking about is IRB approval. It doesn’t just happen at Princeton. In fact, most journals won’t accept work that hasn’t been demonstrated to be conducted ethically.

See for example Nature: http://www.nature.com/authors/policies/experimental.html

Likely Chinese researchers have they're own set of papers and incentives that replaces being able to publish at Nature due to ethical concerns.

Wonder if people with more insight would clarify how incentives work in Chinese academia.

your father worked for some pretty different projects I guess. I have close friends working in those so called 985 universities and they all had issues when they tried to buy those mentioned special computers when they are needed. there is no special approval procedures for them, they can not buy it without going through the annual purchase procedure managed directly by the department of education. they all gave up and end up renting those required computers from different vendors - apparently it is actually more expensive in long term but much easier in terms of paperwork.

it also worth noticing that Australia is not the best example to use here. e.g. the NBN project would be considered as a typical corruption case under the Chinese laws, in fact one can argue that it is the textbook definition of corruption in Chinese standard. Think about it - there is no ethics showstopper when laying fiber in Sydney/Melbourne, why the majority of residences in those two cities still don't get access to the NBN first promised back in 2007 after billions of AUD of their tax money already spent on NBN? Corruption is just corruption, calling it red tape is not helping. the rules are simple there - if you are not qualified for the job, it is fine, you get replaced/demoted, if you use red tape/endless paper work as excuses to misuse tax money (e.g. NBN), that is corruption and Central Commission for Discipline Inspection looks after you and your mates.

btw, by Chinese standards, the NBN corruption case is enough for many life imprisonment sentences. This week's news on Australian deputy PM living with his mistress (not his partner in his own words) in his friend's apartment rent free is just another good dose of corruption without consequence drama.

> This week's news on Australian deputy PM living with his mistress (not his partner in his own words) in his friend's apartment rent free is just another good dose of corruption without consequence drama.

Sorry; I'm not familiar with this situation. Where's the misuse of public funds?

so it is normal and acceptable for deputy PM to be living in his friend's investment property rent free for 6 months when he had an affair with one of his staff? his mistress became pregnant and was "offloaded" from his office to minimise any political damage.
Two years into launching a professional services business creating English resumes, LinkedIn Profiles and academic essay editing in Shanghai, one of the toughest things to still adjust to is "only the results matter". I have turned away some clients due to their rudeness and outside of project scope demands. Fortunately this happens only 1-2x a year. They come back a few weeks later demanding the same but using fake names and slightly altered documents which I recognize immediately. There really is no "right" or "wrong" in their minds. Only what they want.
> Most people would balk at the ethical and human cost, I know I do, but there is no doubt that it provides an advantage to Chinese scientists over those in the developed world.

Can you list all the ethical and humane ways the "developed world" became "developed", for someone who thinks all you're arguing is China shouldn't be able to advance in the way we did, now we can't get away with it any more (in our own countries, at least; hence why we happily outsource everything from cheap phones to torture to less 'red-tapey' ones)?

I know he is your father, but what your father did was essentially, after having tasted the freedom and democracy in australia, he choose to go back to an authoritarian dictatorship for money and help the government pursue research in bio. Would he be comfortable if that same government decides to use the biological research on its 120,000 Uighurs held in re-education camps?
He is not in bio and he has personal reasons to do what he does, but hey, don't let that stop you and your recently created throwaway account from throwing unfounded and wrong accusations around just like the paid pro china trolls.