[arca_vorago]

Yet when I try to tell people why copyleft ala GPLv3 that prevents tivoization is so important I get shouted out of the room.

I should have the ability to root and control the linux on my smarttv. Full stop. This is part of the problem. The same goes with things like phones. This is why both android and ios are NOT the mobile os of the future. They restrict the user from truly owning their device, and I'm fed up with this bullshit.

So remember that next time someone talks about how right Richard Stallman was right and gets downvoted to hell... HN is far too full of businesspeople pretending to be hackers instead of the other way around.

[Momquist]

> This is why both android and ios are NOT the mobile os of the future.

I too would like a more open OS for mobiles, but you have to realize that the majority of users doesn't care about this. They are unconcerned about most privacy issues, don't need to ever tinker at a low level with their devices, and they are the ones ultimately deciding on what the future will be. What matters is the UI, and that the various features "just work".

You are in a minority, however vocal, that has little to no say in what the future of mobile OSes should be. My take on it is that whatever will replace android and ios will be even worse on these issues.

[white-flame]

Most people don't realize how bad all sorts of things in their life are. (Dietary dangers, sedentary lifestyle, financial irresponsibilities, etc)

That doesn't make them less bad, or less concerning overall.

If you think things in the world should only change because of popular opinion & sales, then things like emancipation, environmental protection, worker protection, consumer protection laws, and other such things would never have happened.

[Momquist]

> Most people don't realize how bad all sorts of things in their life are.

I'd say that most people are regularly bombarded by all these issues in the medias. If they still don't realize, then this is because they actively filter them out.

> If you think things in the world should only change because of popular opinion & sales, then things like emancipation, environmental protection, worker protection, consumer protection laws, and other such things would never have happened.

I never claimed that things shouldn't change, only that I very much doubt they will. It's on the opponents to Google/Apple, to convince the majority that there are real issues and that measures should be taken. That's how democracy works, right? And I don't see that happening in the near future. Privacy? We have nothing to hide. Low-level customizability? We only need something that just works. They are the popular answers on these issues that need to be countered.

[white-flame]

I don't think it's only up the market competitors to Google/Apple.

The market doesn't necessarily select against negative side effects, like privacy or the environment. Shifts in these need to happen outside the market. Things like legislative protection about rights, environment, and privacy are going to come from minority demands to claim those rights, not from hoping for a majority market pressure against conveniences that sell well.

[Momquist]

I wasn't talking about economic competitors, but opponents to Google/Apple in the political area (e.g. EFF), who may lobby for changes. Therefore my note about the democratic process. Minorities may make demands, but whether they pass or not does rest on the majority. Hence the need to sway popular opinion, which I don't see happening.

[JoshMnem]

> the majority of users doesn't care about this

Only because they don't know what is going on.

[whatshisface]

Most people I talk to have a sense that all of these big companies (and the government) are violating them, but they feel completely helpless and so ignore the issue. It's extremely similar to people in a third world country that know their foods are being adulterated but can't afford imports and still have to shop.

[JoshMnem]

They only have a vague sense, but they don't understand the direct consequences of specific actions.

There's also a belief in the false idea that, "they already have all of my data, so there is nothing I can do about it."

It's arguable that one needs a mobile phone to participate in modern life (and the situation with mobile phones requires fixing as well). It is not arguable that people need to be able to talk to a box that makes them a coffee or turns on a light. I think that most people would not choose the IoT device if they really understood how it works.

[allthenews]

The majority of users are not tech aware security engineers. The majority of users (myself included) don't want to spend hours of our lives effectively specializing in android/ios under the hood design, and/or browsing shady blogs and forums looking for ways to root our phones.

Don't underestimate the domain knowledge that you've acquired, and the amount necessary to root a phone, let alone take control of linux embedded in a television. It's about more than just not knowing that we're being spied on. It simply isn't efficient to expect so many people, who have already specialized according to their professions and interests, to also take on this level of domain specific knowledge.

[JoshMnem]

I agree -- people shouldn't have to learn all of that. If the system were designed better, then there would be no need. Right now, it's open season on people who don't understand how things work (and even on many people who do understand how things work). So the system needs fixing.