[knz]

I don't entirely disagree but I also suspect that many Americans would be shocked by the cost of food if workers were paid higher wages (especially if it was done for everyone who touches your food as it travels from the farm to the table) and that most farmers would prefer a phased approach to reform so that crops aren't rotting in the fields.

[patrickg_zill]

Last time I did this (estimating only the price on the actual farm labor though), I figured out that paying cabbage or lettuce-pickers $20 per hour would result in the farmer paying less than 5 cents more per head, on something that retails in the grocery store for $2.50 or more.

Even if you multiply the cost by 5 to cover markup as it goes through the chain (of distribution), you have... $2.50 going to $2.75, or ten percent more at retail. Not shocking.

[bardworx]

How in the world did you get your numbers? Can I see some math please?

For full disclosure: I've worked about 15 years in hospitality industry and have quite a few work acquaintances in supply chain, as well as chefs and restauranteurs.

Most folks that are commenting here are living in la-la land with some of the absolutely absurd math and opinion that do not tie into reality.

Lets get some baselines going before I unpack the horse shit being said here.

1. Which agricultural concentration has the most migrant/day laborers? Citrus[0] and other labor intensive crops (sugar cane, corn, cotton, etc.) hire the majority of migrant labor. Majority (78%)[1] of seasonal agricultural jobs are performed by folks who are not from the Unite States.

2. What is the average profit margin, per acre, for agricultural farms (that sells for human consumption)? It's shit [2] - like most freaking farms are barely making it...Farms that have a GCFI (Gross Cash Farm Income) of 5,000,000+ should be doing well, however, about 25% of them are in the critical zone of going out of business. Farms with a GCFI less then 500,000. But hey, maybe that government agency has their head up their ass and don't know shit. Lets take a look at studies by Purdue University and Department of Agriculture and Consumer Economics University of Illinois[4]. To make life easier, heres a summary: according to Purdue estimates, on average, farmland has $114 to $227 return per acre. University of Illinois project returns from $200 to $100 per acre.

3. What is the general wage for Migrant Worker? From [5] this study on an orange farm,workeers can expect $16.92/hr that operate machinery and $13.75/hr for general purpose.

4. What percent of overhead is labor? [5] Page 9. Labor accounts for 41% of overhead for an orange farm. This is a industry standard for all labor intensive agriculture production [6], which are listed as: fruits, vegetables, and nursery products.

Great, now that we have some baselines. Lets dig into some math.

According to a previously mentioned study [5], an orange farm that has been established for 10+ years can expect 550 packed cartons of oranges, that weight 37.5 pounds. This represents 80% of the annual crop. The rest of the crop is used for juices and fillers. That 20% accounts for an astronomic $0 return. In most cases, breaking even is considered a win.

Focusing on the 80% of the crop that does bring in money, what are the economics? (this is taken from Ref Doc #5, page 22) It's shit! How shit? well, if the average cost of a carton of oranges is $12 and you gather 700 cartons per acre, your NET RETURN PER ACRO ABOVE TOTAL COST is -1,156...huh? Wait, you just lost money...

How about if we take that number up a notch and sell our beautiful oranges at $15/carton? Well, on 700 cartons gathered per acre you have now achieved profitability of 944 per acre.

But how does this affect the consumer? Well, my curious conversant, a 5lb bag of Navel Oranges is currently selling for $6.48 at Walmart[7]. For comparison, a store in Illinois is selling 4lb bags of oranges for $3/per[8].

So a carton of oranges is being sold, at the highest range of the study [5] is $15/carton. A carton is 37.5 pounds, which means I can get a bit more then 9 bags of 4lb orange bags, that I will sell for $3/per. Which means I will generate a gross of $27/carton.

After reading this, please, do tell me again, how raising wages to $20/hr is going to cause lettuce to go from 2.50 to 2.75?

[0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-farms/agr...

[1] http://nfwm.org/education-center/farm-worker-issues/farm-wor...

[2] https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2015/januaryfebruary/pr...

[3] http://agribusiness.purdue.edu/blog/understanding-the-margin...

[4] http://www.farmdoc.illinois.edu/manage/2015_crop_budgets.pdf

[5] https://coststudyfiles.ucdavis.edu/uploads/cs_public/19/d4/1...

[6] https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor/

[7] https://www.walmart.com/ip/Navel-Oranges-5-lbs-Bag/44391069

[8] http://waynesmarket.net/shop/247-4-lb-bag-navel-oranges.html

[patrickg_zill]

I am going from memory here... and only considering the issue of picking the lettuce and packaging it.

Variables: original cost of labor $8/hour, new cost $20/hour.

As well, trucking is a big industry and I haven't considered paying the truckers more, either.

Look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxbJVqfIK1U and time the total handling time of 1 head of iceberg lettuce (the round head kind).

Worst case scenario: each head is handled total for about 15 seconds, from cutting or pulling it off its stalk on the ground, quickly removing loose leaves, placing in bag, then sealing the bag and putting into boxes placed on skids.

Thus we have (rounding up, allowing for breaks, turns etc.) 20 seconds per head, 3 per minute, 180 per hour.

$8 / 180 = 4.4 cents of labor per head. $20 / 180 = 11.11

OK, I am off in what I remember ... about 7 extra cents per head of lettuce vs. my remembered 5 cents.

[knz]

> ten percent more at retail. Not shocking.

A ten percent increase across an entire grocery bill might be more noticeable though. Likewise with the cost of eating at a restaurant if all workers are paid more (i.e. the $15/hour movement).

Personally I am not opposed to paying the actual costs instead using immigration and government subsidies of crops like soybeans and corn to lower the costs for some farmers.

[rgbrenner]

most farmers would prefer a phased approach to reform so that crops aren't rotting in the fields.

I think everyone would prefer that.. but this is a problem the farmers created themselves. They've been using migrants for so long, that they've created a substantial difference in pay between themselves and the rest of the labor market. And with a sudden change in the supply of migrants, they're now trying to figure out what that difference is--what the true cost of labor is for their industry.

If they never relied on migrants, they would already know the answer to this question.

[simonsarris]

> many Americans would be shocked by the cost of food if workers were paid higher wages

How do you explain why its so much cheaper to buy quality food in European countries?

When I am in France or Austria, quality butter, eggs, fresh egg pasta, salami, and milk are all very inexpensive. Quality cultured butter in the US is especially expensive. (Mache in the US is also extremely expensive compared to France but that's a demand thing afaik. I don't remember the price diff of spinach.) Even Switzerland had better prices than the US when I was there for quality animal products.

[knz]

This was the first Google result I found - https://www.vox.com/2014/7/6/5874499/map-heres-how-much-ever...

In 2014 the US was spending ~ 6.5% of household expenditure on food, on the lower end compared to the listed European nations (Germany, France, Italy, and Greece in particular).

There are many other links with a similar premise.

My own travels have taken me to Spain, Denmark, France, Germany, England, Australia, New Zealand, Vietnam, and Canada - other than Vietnam I've always found prices to be comparable or greater than in the US. Obviously the cost is influenced by what you are buying, what is in season, and where you are a shopping. YMMV though!

[burfog]

I looked up cultured butter to see what it is. Eeew. Cultured butter is butter that has a strep infection.

If you buy products that normal Americans do not wish to buy, they will of course be expensive. I think your definition of "quality" is something like "as sold in Europe" or possibly "organic".

Stores seek to offer both affordable products and aspirational products. If there is no legitimate way to offer a better product than the standard one, some nonsense will be created. You'll get a fancy wrapper, arbitrary restrictions on how the product is made, and so on.

For this reason, you can get specially marked non-GMO salt. It's salt. Of course it doesn't contain genetically modified organisms! You are still welcome to pay extra for it.

[taejo]

Eeww, yoghurt. Fermented dairy products may be more popular in Europe than the US, but not hugely so

[DoreenMichele]

I doubt that. I once read it would add 2 cents to the cost of a box of cereal to pay farm workers better.

(It has probably been a few years, but the point stands: the cost of labor is a small portion of the cost of food.)

[dragonwriter]

> I once read it would add 2 cents to the cost of a box of cereal to pay farm workers better.

Well, clearly you can pay them better with an even smaller increase, it's just a question of how much better; without quantifying that, commenting about how much the cost increase would be to achieve it is meaningless.

Of course, in any case, farm workers aren't the whole cost of labor in the farm-to-shelf pipeline, either.

[DoreenMichele]

Other than being pedantic, do you have a concrete point? Are you generally agreeing or disagreeing that we could pay them better without seeing some huge spike in food prices?

[mc32]

Would it be any higher than one normally pays at small organic farmers' stands?

Some of smaller organic farms don't hire external workers for labor. They are more expensive, but not that much more expensive.