[GabrielF00]

As an Amazon employee, I tend to think Amazon's reputation is overstated. Some teams definitely have very high operational loads, but in general my hours have been comparable to friends in similar tech companies and certainly less than friends in industries like medicine, management consulting, etc.

It's very strange to describe Amazon (at least engineering roles) as a sweatshop considering how well compensated employees are.

[naturalgradient]

Well compensated? Amazon pays significantly below other mega cap tech companies, and as a PhD student in machine learning with a lot of friends interning and applying for jobs I can confidently say Amazon is nobody's first choice due to low salaries and working conditions.

I'd rather say I am amazed they get anyone great working for them because it really is clearly and painfully obvious that almost everyone would rather work for Google, Facebook or Microsoft regarding machine learning.

Have first hand knowledge of salaries. Amazon offers 30-50% less than other top tech companies for machine learning. There is literally no silver lining or upside as far as I can tell.

In that context, it does not matter if Amazon pays more than <other job> in <other industry> or treats employees better than <other company> in <other industry>.

[ctvo]

Every measurable I've seen has Amazon very close to total compensation for similar levels. The real differences are in perks and vesting schedule (theirs is notoriously bad - 5%, 15%, 40%, 40% I think)

It's hard to make a case that they underpay by 50%, have horrific working hours yet still have / retain an engineering workforce that's talented enough to deliver consistently.

[Analog24]

This is selection bias. You have first hand knowledge of what Amazon offers new graduates with little or no industry experience (and yes, PhD students fall into this category). The compensation for more experienced employees is substantially higher.

[naturalgradient]

"The compensation for more experienced employees is substantially higher"

Citation needed. Higher than compensation for experienced employees at Google/Facebook? I am not even disputing Amazon pays more later, I am saying Amazon never pays top tier AND treats employees badly AND has no perks or particular benefits to make up for it, so nobody who has the option (that I know of) wants to work there.

[Analog24]

Every company pays more later, I was trying to say that the pay gap between other companies disappears for mid+ level positions.

Also, they do not treat employees badly. Are there cases where certain managers treat their employees poorly? Of course, you can find the same anecdotal examples at company of sufficiently large size. Since the infamous 2015 NYT article, employees are treated very well on average. For perks, if you're referring to free catered meals then, yes, Amazon lacks there. But how about working in downtown Seattle instead of some random suburb outside of San Jose?

Finally, you ask for a citation about my claim while offering none for your own. My source: I work here so I actually have first hand experience.

[arcanus]

That's surprising, if it is indeed that large a gap.

Are you sure you were not comparing positions between product groups and research? They tend to have different compensation.

[naturalgradient]

No I am absolutely certain, I was offered more than 2x for the same position by another tech company.

I was so surprised by Amazon's offer I conducted a small survey amongst friends and acquaintances to find which of my offers (there were more) was 'normal'.

The thing is, you can, as Amazon shows, have an enormously successful business by treating employees badly and not paying top of the market. Of course you can. Paying more does not always get you the best, and for many many tasks you don't need Jeff Deans, you just need someone to work hard and get it done.

There is tons of talented people willing to work for less than the top to get a chance to prove themselves, to learn something, to get their shot. It's just that they tend to leave Amazon (c.f. retention rates) after that, and Amazon seems to be doing ok with that. It's just a fundamentally different approach to employee management.

[marssaxman]

It certainly sounds like a sweatshop in the descriptions I've heard from friends who work there, or have worked there in the past, compared to the experiences I and others have had in other large tech companies. I can only think of three people I know who have stuck it out at Amazon for more than two years. The egregiously back-loaded vesting structure is clearly built around the expectation of a high attrition rate, so I believe that the meat-grinder effect exists by design and not merely incompetence.

[natalyarostova]

When I get stressed I just open my stock vesting page and say "two more years." :^)

[vadimberman]

> It's very strange to describe Amazon (at least engineering roles) as a sweatshop considering how well compensated employees are.

Amazon employs over half a million people (https://www.statista.com/statistics/234488/number-of-amazon-...). I doubt engineers make more than 5-10%, someone has to mind the fulfillment centres, and the fully automatic robotic future is yet to arrive (https://qz.com/1039169/amazon-is-looking-to-hire-50000-peopl...).

The blue collars make up the bulk, and while the accounts of white-collar sweatshop conditions are argued about, nobody ever contradicted the accounts of blue-collar workers, and numerous complaints have been filed: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amazon-settlement-could-pave-wa....

[krapp]

>It's very strange to describe Amazon (at least engineering roles) as a sweatshop considering how well compensated employees are.

With a company as large and complex as Amazon, many things can be relative, but if you work as an engineer or programmer at Amazon, chances are that conversation doesn't apply to you, or at least, that it applies less to you than to others.