[problems]

Yeah, I question the idea that it's beneficial to experience pain - why should I? Especially if it's going to cost me days of my life that I could do something with. Maybe not go out, but at least be able to catch up on some of the more passive content... seems like a needless waste of life.

[eropple]

The experience of pain (and I'm separating this from the dopamine-release thing for people who groove on that sort of thing) is, for my money, a useful training facility for willpower and restraint. Separate from the pain-as-warning-signs noted by 'lukeschlather, few things hurt that much and the fact that you are not the master of even yourself is a valuable reminder.

The experience of being uncomfortable is not a bad one to have, nor a bad one to make peace with. Pain and discomfort are a part of humanity: when they don't exist, we invent ways to have both. And there certainly exists a line where chronic pain makes it humane to blunt it--but most folks don't have that problem at all.

And "content" is what you are left with when the soul is leached out of creativity by people who lack it. It is a soul-suckingly awful construct in the twenty-first century and decent people should reject it. Please don't promulgate its notions.

[throwaway34241]

People talking positively about pain (and especially immediate post-surgical pain as in the article) makes me uneasy. Sure, some level of pain is useful as a warning sign. And wanting painkillers primarily to avoid resting is unreasonable.

But, if there is too much pain, it will cause extreme stress during the day and they will probably be unable to sleep at night - it is hard to imagine this being beneficial for recovery.

Also, if the pain is too great, people will avoid future treatment, even if it is medically advisable.

I think there have been problems with anesthesia in the past, where people woke up during surgery (although still unable to move), and I think it led to negative outcomes even though it is only pain - although I admit, I am reluctant to look up the details.

At the very least, I think it is good to give enough pain medication so that the patient does not want to die, although I understand it may be unavoidable when the level / duration is high enough.

It looks like in the article, the level of pain and recovery for this procedure is not very bad (probably because it's laparoscopic), and the doctors know this, so their recommendations were appropriate and the patient was worried over nothing. But, I don't think this means that the same is true for all procedures, and suggesting that people just make peace with it or whatever without knowing what the level is seems wrong. Especially in the case of surgical recovery where the first day or two is usually the worst, and the risks of medication over such a short period are low.

I wouldn't wish for a more serious level of pain on my worst enemy. I do not think it is useful or possible to make peace with, unless you are Buddha himself.

[eropple]

> I don't think this means that the same is true for all procedures, and suggesting that people just make peace with it or whatever without knowing what the level is seems wrong

It's like I literally expressed that? Maybe I made it trickier to parse by referring primarily to chronic pain--if you want to lump extreme, trauma-induced pain into that? Sure. When lives are on the line, whatever, do what needs to be done; we have doctors to make educated decisions based on the information available.

But I will contend most Americans--and my observations are largely limited to us--mostly harm themselves in the effort to avoid what we have largely decided is pain and is in many ways merely discomfort. And I tend to think that that ramps up into greater problems along the way.

[throwaway34241]

I see that makes more sense now, I think that line did throw me off somehow.

I haven't seen any close friends or family just pop a Tylenol for every day aches and pains, but it certainly seems to be a thing, so I'm open to the idea that I'm living in some kind of bubble in that regard. I've always thought of pain medication as for bringing severe pain down to a lower (but non-zero) level, so for example it might not be taken at all if you break a toe, but would be more than reasonable for the jaw surgery in the first post in the thread.

It's interesting, chronic back pain is one of the most common chronic pain causes, and a doctor was talking to me recently about it (in general, luckily I don't have it). Apparently once it gets started it can have its own self reinforcing process, and there are measurable biological changes to how nerves fire etc. that are independent of any initial underlying injury. Probably there's some people faking or overstating it, but I could easily imagine such a process getting pretty severe. Unfortunately, the outlook is pretty bad I think once you've had it for a set amount of time.

So concerning chronic pain / opioid use I can't figure out if Americans are less willing to deal with pain, or actually have more pain, or some combination of both. If back pain just needs an initial injury to set it off, then escalates from there, the unhealthy lifestyles and ever increasing obesity levels here would do a lot to explain why it is becoming an increasing problem.

[kelnos]

I don't buy the "it's good and normal for you; suck it up" perspective. Pain is a useful signal that you're doing something wrong with your body, or that you need to rest to recover and heal. But if you're lying still on your bed recovering from a surgery and are still in pain, what purpose does that serve? It "builds character"? If that makes you happy, go for it, but don't impose that view on the rest of us.

[problems]

This seems to me to be entirely backwards. If you appreciate creativity, don't you want to have as much time as possible to experience and enjoy the world around you? To learn? To create? Why would you spend the day stuck in bed feeling like shit, unable to do anything but watch TV when you could easily solve that and do more?

[eropple]

There is a joke about Americans (which I extend to "most people", and definitely to most technical people I know): if one is to stop being stimulated from outside, then one runs the very real risk of having to consider what is inside. I tend to consider the cavalier American use of painkillers to be in that "stimulated from outside" bucket--and I try very hard to be unafraid of considering what might be inside.

I already don't watch TV when I feel poorly (or in general). I might work--usually on something that I care about, so as to make me feel good that I have done it. Or I might read. If circumstances are uncomfortable enough that concentrating is difficult, then I know I need to sleep. If sleep is very difficult--not merely difficult--due to pain, then sure, then painkillers are on the table for me. Otherwise, why would I try to change how I feel externally?

Painkillers do not change the underlying state. If it is something you literally cannot bear, then sure, get some help. But I have learned over time that the world includes discomfort and pain and that they're really not that bad, most of the time. The world around me includes me. And it includes the need to be mindful about me, too. This is part of that.

[problems]

I think you're confusing some sort of emotional pain which may deserve analysis with physical pain which analysis cannot bring any insights from - it's just pain. Nothing revolutionary.

[lukeschlather]

Pain is really important. You can't properly heal from an injury without pain, because you won't know when you're worsening the injury. In the worst case you'll get into a descending spiral where you need to take more and more painkillers as you attempt to go about your day normally until you've injured yourself to the point where painkillers are no longer able to let you ignore the injury.

[problems]

And in the best case (and almost 100% of the time) you'll just heal anyways, but won't give a shit about the pain and will actually be able to do stuff.

I think I'll roll that dice, thanks anyways. I'm generally able to restrict myself without the need for pain.

[megablast]

Oh of course. And watching tv is not a waste.