[UnhelpfulYoda]

I share your amazement.

There are lots of reasons people might 'turn' assuming these aren't long term espionage assets. From what I've read, the real reasons are mostly banal and extremely petty at their core, but of course they always use some higher principle to justify their actions.

Then again, I am always amazed at certain types of immigrants who come over with an attitude of entitlement and national pride for the countries they just left because, frankly those countries sucked, or they wouldn't be here.

I'm actually a naturalized citizen myself, came over as an infant. I can't even begin to imagine the nerve or some immigrants who display their national flags in their windows or outside their homes.

It was my parents view, and one which I share, that we came over to become Americans, not to become XYZ-Americans.

It has always given me a certain perspective to life in that no matter how bad things from time to time seem, all I have to do, is think about the alternate universe where my parents chose to stay, and how incredibly bad my life would have been. For that I'm forever grateful to this country.

So yeah, it's a very alien concept to me as well.

[samirillian]

No weirder than hanging an American flag outside one's house. "Oh don't mind my little totem there. Yeah, no, I'm too tribal to recognize the absurdity of this practice."

[UnhelpfulYoda]

I can understand your point of view, but...

...let's pretend you are just a simple totem believing tribalist. Things become so bad in your own tribe that you leave, despite worries as to whether another tribe would ever accept you as one of their own, much less even accept you in.

Thankfully, you find a tribe that is willing to take you in.

After some time you decorate your hut with your last tribes totems and tattoo your children with the old tribes symbols.

See, it doesn't make any sense either way... IMHO

[sangnoir]

> Things become so bad in your own tribe that you leave

That's gross over-simplification: it might have applied to you/your family, but is by no means universal.

[afjl]

It may be an over-simplification but it is more universal or common than you might think. I recently discovered that my father's entire family emigrated from their home country as a result of political persecution. This is a pretty common theme in American history. In fact, much of the progress and greatness of the United States was built by immigrants because of the opportunities this country gave to them.

[jpetso]

An alternative point of view is that no society, tribe or nation is perfect, and on the other hand there are plenty of great things about the history and culture of either place that are worth preserving. As an immigrant, it's my privilege and opportunity to adopt the best ideas/habits of both my origin country and my chosen one, and to spread the good things in each of the places that's not (yet) sufficiently aware of the possible alternatives.

Displaying pride for one's roots is by no means an indication that one would reject the values of one's new home. Cross-pollination of ideas is what makes progress happen. That applies just as much to someone moving from California to New Jersey as it applies to immigration. Personally, I think a full-on "leave behind your old self" approach doesn't yield the most benefits for either the individual or society as a whole, unless your origin country is indeed an unequivocal shithole.

[UnhelpfulYoda]

I think you misunderstand me. I'm definitely not implying America, or any country is perfect, far from it. I think that we do have something special here, which not many other countries have...

> Cross-pollination of ideas is what makes progress happen...Personally, I think a full-on "leave behind your old self" approach doesn't yield the most benefits for either the individual or society as a whole, unless your origin country is indeed an unequivocal shithole.

I mostly agree with you, up to a point. I don't see it as an all or nothing question. While, I strongly believe that there are some things, beliefs, superstitions, and bigotries which would be better serve everyone (humanity), if they were left leave in their respective 'shitholes'

To me it's a gray area, I don't want or expect people to completely assimilate, but unless you're a foreign national, here for an extended period of time without the intent of becoming a citizen, it's just plain weird to display another countries flag in the country you've chosen to move to aside from fun hollow displays in celebration or whatnot.

(I understand the larger discussion of whether nationalism itself is an outdated concept...but i digress)

[frabbit]

I agree about the displaying foreign flags thing. It just seems rude to me.

[jpetso]

I mean, I personally would never consider hanging any country's flag in a prominent spot. But for people who do, I'd wager it's likely that they it's to celebrate culture and memories, not necessarily to display allegiance. Sure there are others too. But seeing it this way allows me to not be offended and instead view it as merely quaint, sometimes odd.

Ideally, both sides should try to avoid bad blood.