They can claim something is illegal all they want, but that has no impact whatsoever on the actual legality of it. Anti-consumer EULA/TOS items haven't held up in court for a while now.
Depends on jurisdiction a lot, quite honestly. Nintendo can say it's illegal all it wants, but if I own a physical copy of a game, and make a digital backup of such, then I'm in the clear as far as Canadian law (see our copyright bill C-11) goes. A ROM made from an official copy vs. downloaded from the internet are pretty hard to tell apart, but regardless you are allowed to own and retain such copies if you own the original.
That being said, if there's DRM and you break it, then you have a different issue entirely. Owning the ROM wouldn't be illegal, but breaking the DRM certainly would be. Even if in the process of legally backing up your data off of the disc you break the DRM, you're still in legal hot waters.
Quite frankly I'm convinced Nintendo can say all it wants, it's a scare tactic and for the most part they're full of shit unless you take into account a specific part of US or Japanese law in a specific state or jurisdiction. I would not assume that they know exactly what they're talking about globally.
There is an important distinction however with regards to exercising the so-called "private copy rights" — at least in the case of European law, I cannot speak about other regions — which is that the source of the data you copy must be licit. Which means that your private copy right allows you to copy the ROM from a cartridge that you bought, but not copy the data from a torrent since (presumably) the uploader had no right to put it there.
Post-scriptum : read that for a better understanding of why it matters where the bytes came from, even if they are identical and should make no difference from a computer science point of view : http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23
Nothing you said disagrees with anything Nintendo said.
You also should note that page is from the Nintendo USA/Canada region website. It isn't trying to explain the situation for every jurisdiction globally.
ThatGeoGuy: "A ROM made from an official copy vs. downloaded from the internet are pretty hard to tell apart, but regardless you are allowed to own and retain such copies if you own the original."
Nintendo: "whether you have an authentic game or not, or whether you have possession of a Nintendo ROM for a limited amount of time, i.e. 24 hours, it is illegal to download and play a Nintendo ROM from the Internet."
Those seem like conflicting statements, if you assume that "such copies" means both "a ROM made from an official copy" (i.e. read by the individual from their own cartridge) and a copy "downloaded from the internet".
And further, Nintendo claims that game copying devices themselves are also illegal.
>ThatGeoGuy: "A ROM made from an official copy vs. downloaded from the internet are pretty hard to tell apart, but regardless you are allowed to own and retain such copies if you own the original."
A dollar bill stolen in a robbery is "pretty hard to tell apart" from a dollar bill you received as change from a legal cash transaction. It is silly to argue that how those bills were acquired is not a factor in your claimed ownership of them.
>Those seem like conflicting statements, if you assume that "such copies" means both "a ROM made from an official copy" (i.e. read by the individual from their own cartridge) and a copy "downloaded from the internet".
I read it differently. The subject of the sentence is "an official copy" and the "vs. downloaded from the internet" portion was a prepositional phrase. On second reading it is certainly possible I misinterpreted it. The author should have used a conjunction like "and" instead of a preposition like "versus" if they wanted both copies to be the subject.
>And further, Nintendo claims that game copying devices themselves are also illegal.
Nintendo says nothing about making ROMs from official copies. It does not claim they are illegal. They are definitively legal. However almost all games sold today have some sort of DRM included. A copying device is illegal if it tries to circumvent this DRM. Therefore if a game has DRM, there is no legal way for a person to own a ROM of that game.
To summarize Nintendo's point and the one that Tech Radar seconded, the only legal ROM of a commercial game is one you create yourself from a DRM free game that you already own.
> It is silly to argue that how those bills were acquired is not a factor in your claimed ownership of them.
Robbery and online downloads are worlds apart. The first is a violent act that deprives someone of their property. It's an unjust action that harms one party for the benefit of another. Downloading a ROM from the internet, for a game that the downloader already owns, lacks all of the negatives that make robbery repugnant. Legality is a different question entirely, of course; legally, it matters how I acquired the ROM.
> Nintendo says nothing about making ROMs from official copies. It does not claim they are illegal.
False. They claim that making ROMs from official copies, as well as the devices that allow you to do so, are illegal because they can be used to illegally distribute the games online. Quoting from Nintendo's FAQ:
Are Game Copying Devices Illegal?
Yes. Game copiers enable users to illegally copy video game software onto floppy disks, writeable compact disks or the hard drive of a personal computer. They enable the user to make, play and distribute illegal copies of video game software which violates Nintendo's copyrights and trademarks. These devices also allow for the uploading and downloading of ROMs to and from the Internet. Based upon the functions of these devices, they are illegal.
> A copying device is illegal if it tries to circumvent this DRM. Therefore if a game has DRM, there is no legal way for a person to own a ROM of that game.
That's not Nintendo's claim, but it's a claim with stronger legal support than Nintendo's. It's also moving the goalposts, IMO. Take an NES game as an example. There was a game lockout system (and similar systems in the SNES and N64 consoles), but those don't prevent access to game data, just cause the console to reboot if authentication fails. Those are 3 of the major systems that I'm thinking of when I think about getting copies of ROMs.
no skin in this, but maybe it is legal to create a digital copy of your own but illegal to download someone else's generated copy? Not sure if they could say that you couldn't play the backup directly (as in, that you'd be forced to push it to an official cartridge or disk), but I would wager the amount of people with the hardware to migrate NES/SNES/Genesis/etc. cartridges to ROMs is pretty low.
> no skin in this, but maybe it is legal to create a digital copy of your own but illegal to download someone else's generated copy?
I think that's probably true, but it's not what Nintendo is claiming. They claim that the copying devices themselves are illegal to own or use, since the result is a file that can be illegally uploaded and shared, and that as a result, any digital copy that a consumer might create is also illegal, even if kept for personal use.
> but I would wager the amount of people with the hardware to migrate NES/SNES/Genesis/etc. cartridges to ROMs is pretty low.
Yes, but not terribly exotic. There are EEPROMs that are drop-in replacements, in many cases. So they're also the kinds of chips that you can just connect an EEPROM reader to, to dump the data. Reading the data from the cartridge pins themselves can be a little more complex; I know that the 8-bit Nintendo systems broke their games into swappable sections, with access controlled by a mapper chip. To dump those games from the cartridge connector, one would need to send bank-swapping signals to the chip. The NES had a couple hundred variants of these mapper chips; the Game Boy had about 5 common ones. Not sure about the SNES. Sega Genesis/Megadrive just exposed the cartridge pins directly to the CPU's address bus, I think.
I know that people build Arduino-based ROM dumpers. The secret sauce is more in the mapper-handling code than anything else.
Newer systems like the Nintendo DS are likely to be less straightforward, but I haven't looked into it that closely.
Disclaimer: I've only read your quotes and I am not a lawyer. Copyright is not a law about having a copy. It's a law about making a copy. A copy is neither legal nor illegal. Copying may infringe copyright or it may not.
Generally speaking, unless you have permission from the copyright holder (or the copyright has expired), you may not make a copy of something. Again, generally speaking, if you do not make a copy of something, then you can not infringe copyright (although, you might be liable for conspiracy or other similar things so your action may still be illegal).
The provision for private copying complicates things a little bit, but not that much. Usually private copying allows you to make a limited number of copies of things that you own, as long as it is for private use. It does not allow you to make a copy of something that you don't own. So you can't borrow it from the friend or a library and make a copy without infringing copyright.
(Quick side note since there is some discussion about Canadian copyright law: Historically there has been a levy for recorded musical performances which allows Canadians to make copies for private use. In the past you did not have to own the copy in order to make your own copy! This is a completely different issue than what I'm talking about. It only applies to recordings of musical performances, so it doesn't apply to games. I moved away from Canada a long time ago, so I've lost track of what's going on with the levy. Most misunderstood copyright law ever, I think...)
It doesn't matter if you own a copy of X. You can not make a copy of your friend's copy of X. They can not make a copy of X and give it to you. Both of those actions are infringement on copyright. Downloading off the internet doesn't change anything at all. The only grey area is which action is considered "copying" from the perspective of copyright infringement: uploading, downloading or both. My understanding is that in most countries both actions are considered "copying".
The end result is that whether or not you own a copy of a ROM, it is still infringement to download a copy from somewhere else. It may not be infringement on your part to buy or be given a physical copy. If that copy was made in an infringing way, the person who made the copy would be liable, not you. However, like I said, consipiracy, etc can still apply to you if you are knowingly entering into these kinds of arrangements.
What people usually get confused about is that if someone comes to your house and says, "You have infringed copyright" and points to your copy of the ROM, the copy itself isn't really evidence that you infringed the copyright. They would have to show that you made a copy of a different ROM (which may or may not be difficult).
Long story short --
ThatGeoGuy: technically correct since they didn't say "it's legal to download the copy from the internet". But basically misleading as hell because how did you get the copy without infringing copyright?
Nintendo: In most countries they are correct and not misleading at all. You may not download a copy from the internet unless they give permission. Also you may not play ROMs that are under copyright unless you have a license because some people have successfully argued that loading a game (or any data) into a computer is "making a copy". This latter argument may not stand up in some countries, but I wouldn't really want to be the landmark case that tests the law where you live...
Am I going crazy? I provided an honest source for my point. It was pointed out the source I used is likely biased. I therefore provided a second independent source that agreed with the original source. No one has yet provided any source that disagrees with anything I stated or anything stated by either of the sources I linked. And yet is a fallacy for me to ask that someone should have a source if they are going to argue against the two sources I provided?
Your source was someone asserting, without justification, that it is illegal. That's not a legal argument. Even without considering that the source is very, very biased, it's not helpful.
They're right, it isn't legal. The only legal way to acquire a usable ROM in the US is to rip it yourself from a disc/cartridge that you own.
That doesn't mean that it's wrong to download ROMs. I've done it. It's just not legal. People are confusing a factual accounting of the law with personal moral condemnation.
Here is an independent summary from Tech Radar that agrees with Nintendo. [1]
[1] - http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/are-game-emulators-lega...