[kybernetikos]

> Zen at least admits this and offers ways to interact with this void and one's own growing understanding of it. I think these monks don't because they simply assume the meaning is to show how good you are so you can receive redemption after death.

In the Christian tradition, it isn't how good you are that gives you redemption after death, it's a free gift from God that you can never be good enough to deserve.

This is probably also why the Christian mystical tradition doesn't engage that much with the void and lack of meaning (although see Ecclesiastes), since a Christian believes that fundamentally there is a huge amount of meaning to life that comes from relationship with God.

[riffraff]

> In the Christian tradition, it isn't how good you are that gives you redemption after death, it's a free gift from God that you can never be good enough to deserve.

Isn't this the protestant view ("sola gratia")? I'd think one's actions are very much accounted for in catholicism, which is also why there is a big stress on confession/repenting and penitence.

[kybernetikos]

My understanding is that in all major forms of Christian theology, including Catholicism, salavation is an unearned gift of God. This is not to say that actions are irrelevant in any of the major forms - Protestants too believe that the gift of God must naturally result in particular kinds of actions by those who have genuinely received it.

It's also the case that many (though not all) Christians believe that it is possible to lose your salvation by giving up your faith, something that could be argued to be an 'action' and that all forms of Christianity emphasise 'repentance' another potential 'action'.

[neaden]

I think (from the Catholic view at least) that actions should come from your belief in God. Faith isn't just supposed to be a belief that god exists, because Satan knows god exists, it is supposed to be an acceptance of his will into your heart. If you say that you have accepted his will into your heart and yet you don't perform charitable deeds, are abusive to others etc. then it shows that your are either deluding others or yourself about your relationship with God. Or from the Book of James "If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone may say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble."

[0x445442]

Yeah, it's very circular and as a Christian I find it the most challenging component of faith.

Salvation by faith not works. But the act of faith, if you believe in free will, is the ultimate work.

[erikb]

In which relationship would you put doubt and faith? Are they clear opposites in that understanding?

[pnathan]

Pretty much.

Christians face the void and the emptiness, but the Christian claim is that the void is the lack of God in our life caused by sin; that is, to fill the void and to address existential crises, we must engage further with God.

Mystic theology in the Protestant tradition is very obscure. My judgement is that it is because the Protestants are essentially a textual tradition. Pentacostals shook that up, but have some maturing left to do there. :-)