[forgotpw2018]

Seems like a good time to dump this =).

I think I know the kind of world Travis comes from. He was in a fraternity, and he treated it like a business like I did. When he owned a real business he applied those lessons far too liberally.

Fraternities are ruthlessly competitive, going as far as planting fake pledges and building internal dossiers on all the other frats on campus. Very valuable was your loyal man with a generic young face that could walk their way into other houses unsuspected.

Fraternities are also bound strongly by shared goals and lifetime membership, something that doesn't translate to a company where you can leave anyday. They're both a company and a political structure within the university. A strange 501c3 title 9 exempt chimera that forever walks the line.

I'm not defending what he's done, just saying that ruthless counterintelligence is normal for Greek houses trying to get an edge, just like politics. We did much of the same, going as far as putting together wifi sniffers with long range dish antennas pointed at other houses to figure out how many people connected to their WiFi during parties.

We never did any harm, but we watched as closely as our abilities (and the law) allowed. It was opposition research, as bad as politics, and often intertwined. At one point I was fraternity president and my roommate was president of the Student House of Representatives, in charge of the school's 'activity fee', which was close to 50 million a year. We both hated politics and left them forever after graduation, but seeing into the void was a hell of an eye opener for both of us.

I have a strong feeling Travis tried the fraternity formula on a unicorn. A fraternity is much different primarily because you're elected. If you own it, you don't have to pander to anyone or spend half your time watching your back. I think the shadier and secretive projects are a reflection that Travis didn't understand that.

[exogeny]

I too was in a fraternity and literally nothing you describe resembles anything like anyone I've ever known in one has done, or would be bored or frankly, creepy enough to do.

[JohnJamesRambo]

Did you ever consider what a tremendous waste of time this competition with other frats was? Trying to determine how many people were at their parties? Are we supposed to take this seriously?

[forgotpw2018]

Compared to what the average college student was doing? No. It was a great use of time. We had a team, a goal, and a purpose. No stupider than being on mock trial or chess team.

It's all pointless if you think about it too much, but that competition drove a ton of benefits to the school. IFC (Interfraternity counsil) ran most of the school events. Our attendance at official school functions like football games or president speeches was about 30% of attendees, even though 'greek life' was only 4% of the student population.

Over 50% of alumni endowment/donation money was from sorority/fraternity members even though they made up a single digits percentage of graduates since the 60s.

I don't understand why Greek life is attacked so judiciously on HN when it's clearly a net positive to schools and the students that join. Of course it's not for everyone but that's not a reason to vilify it.

[strgcmc]

> Of course it's not for everyone but that's not a reason to vilify it.

Knitting is not for everyone, but by choosing not to be a knitter, I'm generally not missing out on social/career advancement opportunities (e.g. I apply for a job but I'm not in a frat, I'm more qualified than the next guy, but the next guy was a frat brother of the hiring manager, so guess who wins?).

Even if I do choose to be a knitter, I'm generally not putting myself at higher risk of death, such as by being forced to drink toxic amounts of alcohol and then having my supposed "brothers" abandon me after I fall down the stairs and lie there bleeding to death.

There's a huge logical gap inside the statement, "not everyone has to like thing XYZ, q.e.d. there can be no criticism of thing XYZ".

[softawre]

Interesting that joining the military grants the same benefits and has the same risks you mention.

[forgotpw2018]

Fraternity hazing and military bootcamp are basically the same.

There's a lot of parallels that shouldn't be legal since hazing isn't, but nobody talks about it

[sirspacey]

I’d be very interested to learn more from your experience. i see great potential in Greek orgs, a training ground that is systematically undervalued. if you’d be game for an interview, my email is: sirspacey.hn at the Gmail

[ryandrake]

As someone who knows nothing about fraternities: what on earth are they competing over? Are they competing over who throws the best parties?

[discoursism]

They compete over things that seem absolutely critical in your early twenties, somewhat impressive in your late twenties, and foolish at best by your mid thirties.

[forgotpw2018]

Eh, I joined one when I was 25 so I have to disagree. One of my fraternity friends followed me across the country and let me live on his couch for about two years. Another was my best man. Best friends I've ever had, easily.

Yeah the competition doesn't mean as much when you get older but you still get fired up years later on homecoming when you hear your old rival got more members or a bigger house or whatever.

I'm in my early thirties now and I still think it was worth it, competition and everything.

[kinkrtyavimoodh]

I'd say they start sound foolish right about the time you finish undergrad.

[forgotpw2018]

They compete with eachother on everything.

Who throws the best parties is just a small piece, an effect rather than the cause. Its who hangs out with the best sororities, who has the most power on campus, who's the biggest, who wins the most sports (which really is a meathead metric IMO)

But its not all pompous crap, they also compete for the best grades and the most successful alumni.

Fraternities are very elitist which is both good and bad, they try to find the best members, the most powerful attractive and smart guys on campus. If you have nothing to offer you probably won't be allowed in. What's offerable is anything that would help the fraternity reputation or finances.

[bhldr]

Meatheads will compete over anything

[kinkrtyavimoodh]

Sorry to say this but I sometimes wonder if most members of fraternities who talk about them realize that literally everything they say makes fraternities sound like an absolutely terrible concept.

[forgotpw2018]

I don't see anything wrong with it. What don't you like?

The basic concept is to throw 40 twenty year old college guys (hopefully well chosen) into a 10000 sq ft house worth a mil, and they sink or swim.

You learn a ton. Keeping it afloat is a huge challenge, and the competition with other houses demands constant attention and good decision making.

I was president about two years after joining as a random guy in undergrad, and suddenly in charge of 300,000 a year budget. Our alumni pledges plus assets were almost a million and that's normal. Keep in mind I was just a guy elected by 23 of my 40 peers voting for me.

It was one of the best learning experiences in my life. If you know of something equivalent that's accessible for a random guy in college and not in the Greek system it would surprise me.

[spyspy]

Wow that was hard to read. I thoroughly believe none of that is true.

[forgotpw2018]

Hahaha. Look it up, having a blood relative or longtime friend of a member in your house pledge another house is a pretty common tactic. You can find out if they haze, how much money and members they have, their secret rituals. You can even snipe other pledges from their incoming class sometimes.

The activity fee thing is true too. Many universities have a student government of sorts, and some of them allow the student government to decide what happens with a significant amount of the school's budget. At my school it was 5% ish. At the school with 20k students that's a ton of money for 40 elected students to slosh around.

The Greek system would commonly ally as voting blocks to make sure their candidates were elected, so student government is frequently run by Greeks.

Watching other houses parties was really important too. You need to see how far other houses go in breaking the inevitably unenforcable rules for parties. If you stray from the pack the school will shut you down. Finding out how many people went to social events at other houses was probably the most accurate gauge of a house popularity and reputation.

I came from a school with a very competitive Greek system, so I'm sure a lot of this doesn't apply everywhere

[ikeboy]

For someone who was forced out of the company he founded and then sued by his VCs, maybe he didn't watch his back enough.

[adjkant]

He was forced out for doing a bad job, not because of a power struggle simply for power. If I'm a cashier at my grocer and pay every customer a dollar too much in change, I'm going to be fired no matter how much I "watch my back". The only difference is the employee doing a bad job was the CEO, so other measures were needed to fire him.