[glenstein]

There's a serious problem with our own (US) culture's ability to think clearly about the problem posed by Chinese authoritarianism in the 21st century. I would attribute the problem to our tendency for centrism, both-sideism, and probably to the just-world hypothesis.

People are tempted to bury it in a larger narrative of global complexity, thinking that treating it like a trick question is evidence of sophistication. But what if it's not a trick question?

[bufordsharkley]

Some things are not cut-and-dry. Some are. Something like abolitionism has been justified by history as mere common sense, and an absolutely necessary component of a humane society.

I'm curious how China currently views Sun Yat-sen's "Three Principles of the People"[0], one of which is Democracy. Does his philosophy attract any attention today?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Principles_of_the_People

[yorwba]

China takes Democracy (民主) very seriously. You'll see it on propaganda banners everywhere. You see, the leadership is democratically appointed by the will of the people. The 100% majority of the CCP is completely justified by its benevolent rule.

/s

There is no need to abandon old principles when you can just use doublethink to make them mean whatever you want them to mean.

[marcosdumay]

> Something like abolitionism has been justified by history as mere common sense, and an absolutely necessary component of a humane society.

If taxation by a non-representative government isn't as much common sense as abolitionism, it's only because of a huge amount of propaganda. It is not even much fundamentally different from slavery.

[lostlogin]

>It is not even much fundamentally different from slavery.

Yes it is.

[marcosdumay]

How so?

What is that large difference? Authoritarian states deal with their people basically as if they were their property. They dispose of their lives at will, they dictate what they think and what they work on, they take their labor at will.

[lostlogin]

Sorry, I misunderstood your original comment as referring to the the US. However I don’t think that the system in China is like what happened with slavery (it is China you refer to?). People aren’t kidnapped, chained and transported in conditions that kill large numbers. They aren’t traded in degrading markets and are not routinely beaten to death or mutilated by masters. They aren’t branded. As bad as conditions currently are it doesn’t seem like slavery to me.

[marcosdumay]

I wasn't talking specifically about China, or specifically about America colonialism style slavery. But I would bet that there are plenty of people kidnaped and forcefully transported around the country on China for labor, that's what that kind of government normally does.

They may not be traded on degrading markets, but that just make people valueless from the point of view of a dictatorship. And I do actually expect people are being mutilated by the Chinese government all the time, we just probably don't hear about it. Again, that what this kind of government normally does.

[mutteraloo]

Or maybe you're just under their marketing and propaganda. here are some things the authoritarian government did just this year

- China puts a freeze on burning coal, leaving millions of families shivering in the cold http://shanghaiist.com/2017/12/05/coal-ban.php

- China Blowing Major Bubbles In 2017 https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2016/12/19/china-bubb...

- In locked-down Xinjiang, China is tracking kitchen knives with QR codes https://www.fastcompany.com/40510238/in-xinjiang-china-some-...

- Big data meets Big Brother as China moves to rate its citizens http://www.wired.co.uk/article/chinese-government-social-cre...

- China threatens U.S. Congress for crossing its ‘red line’ on Taiwan https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/josh-rogin/wp/2017/10/12...

- Joe Hockey’s stark warning to Australia over Chinese interference http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/joe-hockeys...

- Chinese diplomat in U.S. threatens Taiwan with military attack https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3316709

[glenstein]

I think you misunderstood my comment. I'm saying the U.S. has a cultural problem preventing it from confronting the very real authoritarian excesses of China. I think your articles are excellent evidence of those excesses and I agree with you about the problems posed by their marketing and propaganda.

[laretluval]

I'd say the US's cultural problem is they think it's their business to "confront" other countries on their domestic issues.

[JumpCrisscross]

Ignoring domestic issues until they blow over into an international issue is irrational. Every country with the means projects influence. China, in the South China Sea it considers its own and in Africa and parts of Latin America, is no different.

[Dolores12]

> - China puts a freeze on burning coal, leaving millions of families shivering in the cold http://shanghaiist.com/2017/12/05/coal-ban.php

Love your arguments like this. How about the ban allows everyone to breath fresh air during winter instead of byproducts of coal burning? Omg, few families is going to be shivers. Many more will thank its government for that step. You are welcome to visit Beijing to experience constant smog yourself. I highly doubt you want your children to live in such environment.

[yorwba]

If the ban had been such a great idea, why did they roll it back? Banning coal before the alternative (gas heating) was ready is just a classic example of ruling top-down without concern for side-effects.

Democracies are not immune to that, of course, but the effects are exacerbated when nobody dares to point out obvious flaws like that to avoid embarrassing the leadership.

[mutteraloo]

Or you know, the government could just stop the polluting factories from polluting

[nate_meurer]

Well, that's sort of what they did by shuttering the dirtiest coal-fired generators. It's kind of a hard spot they're in -- lethal smog vs. electricity shortages.