[xor1]

>People refusing to do so will be considered selfish and will be punished/excluded from society

There's nothing wrong with expecting someone to change their personality. Even if you want to claim that it's not a choice, it is a choice to at least attempt to change your personality, and that's the very least we should expect from anyone who has negative personality traits.

[dschuetz]

You certainly mean behavior. Personality traits aren't as easily switched on and off. But you're actually confirming what I just criticized about this paper.

[xor1]

No, I mean personality. Do you think of personality as something being intrinsically tied to a person?. Is a person's personality ultimately what we think of as "them"?

I think for most people, personality, memory, and physical appearance (especially facial appearance) are what they think of when they're forced to ultimately explain what actually constitutes a person.

Most people consider these things unchangeable because the effort and potential risks involved are, to them, unreasonable to the point of being unthinkable. Extensive therapy, psychological conditioning, chemical experimentation, surgery...

Generally, I think people just don't want to change, but they use the argument that it's impossible to change these things as a defense. Then they fall back on "well no one should need to change themselves".

They're perfectly fine as is, after all. How dare anyone say otherwise? You just have to accept them as they are, and if you can't deal with it, that's your problem.

[adjkant]

> Is a person's personality ultimately what we think of as "them"?

I would pull up a huge debate right here. Who's perspective are we using? What if people have different perspectives even after knowing the person in the same capacity? What about what the person is biologically dispositioned towards? What about mental illnesses? The list of questions goes on, none with good answers I think.

> Generally, I think people just don't want to change, but they use the argument that it's impossible to change these things as a defense. Then they fall back on "well no one should need to change themselves".

This is again proving the original comments point. In order to make this claim true, you have to assert that you can change your personality. We first have to agree on what personality is, and then see if we can change it. We do not really have good answers for either of these. This paper is an attempt but as summarized well, far from conclusive or without flaw. I would argue that people are changing their actions, not their personality.

[xor1]

>What if people have different perspectives even after knowing the person in the same capacity? What about what the person is biologically dispositioned towards? What about mental illnesses.

I would include all of these things under my definition of "personality".

>I would argue that people are changing their actions, not their personality.

Yes, you're right. I'm thinking purely in terms of internalized thoughts and externalized actions. Going from "I want to do X but I will be punished for it even though it's my first inclination, so I will do Y instead", to no longer thinking of X at all and your first inclination is Y (the "right") thing. To me, your internalized thoughts and the decision-making behind your actions are part of your personality.

The realized actions that actually occur are separate from that. Changing your personality means removing branches from your internalized decision-making that would have existed previously, so they're no longer considerations.

[adjkant]

A hard second to this. I would make a clear distinction between personality traits and actions.

This will mix subjects and I don't know enough to plant a flag on this hill let alone die on it, but imagine the moral serial killer who has urges to kill but never acts on them. They can't change who they are (as an adult as far as I know from current research), but they can try their best to affect actions. But their traits underneath are not changing.*

* Ignore the actual claims re serial killers, changing, and how that actually probably isn't personality traits, or maybe it is. Point being, it highlights a key difference between the state / biology of a person and how they act in the world.

[simen]

Yes. You could be be born with pedophilic tendencies, but through active effort, avoid harming children in any way.

As for changing your personality, it's extremely hard and frustrating even if you're not a criminal, and your traits are, for the most part, harming only yourself. I've tried an extensive array of approaches... Nothing has been able to fundamentally change who I am in a way that will lead me to a happier, more successful life. Having done all the "right things" that people say are supposed to work and having them all fail, it then gets very tempting to go down a darker path.

I fucking wish it was as simple as just making a decision to change, carrying out some well-defined plan, and arriving at the destination. It is definitely not.

[xor1]

>This will mix subjects and I don't know enough to plant a flag on this hill let alone die on it, but imagine the moral serial killer who has urges to kill but never acts on them. They can't change who they are (as an adult as far as I know from current research), but they can try their best to affect actions. But their traits underneath are not changing.*

I firmly believe there is a way to change/cure those traits/urges given modern means, while still allowing the subject to possess complete freedom and agency.

[adjkant]

Do you have anything to back up that belief? That's an incredibly strong unsubstantiated belief as presented.

[chesimov]

Are all unpopular personality traits also negative?

[naasking]

> that's the very least we should expect from anyone who has negative personality traits

Who gets to decide the class of negative personality traits? Is there some objective measure of this "negativity"? It seems there are some gaping holes in your position which are probably impossible to fill.

[xor1]

>Who gets to decide the class of negative personality traits?

In this context, negative personality traits are generally decided based on group consensus.

>Is there some objective measure of this "negativity"?

Sure. Do people like you? Do they like to be around you?

[naasking]

That's not objective, that's subjective. Objective means mind-independent.

Also, tyranny of the majority.