[maelito]

Here in France, lots of people don't do the difference between the taxes that go to the government, and the social security deductions. Calling the latter "taxes" is wrong. Most of it pays for your retirement and your health problems.

[lucbocahut]

I think the perception that social security and retirement deductions are taxes stems from the fact these are obligatory. Insofar as we have no choice in the matter these have all the properties of taxes. With the caveat it is difficult to compare one country to another because the value of government services you get is somewhat subjective, I offer the following data point for France: if a company outlays 100k, the employee would take home about 58k before income tax. A single person would pay 10k in income tax on that. All in he would therefore have 48k to spend. This might be useful for those of you wishing to evaluate the cost of hiring in France.

[maelito]

Exactly. The government is releasing open source software to make these estimations : https://embauche.beta.gouv.fr/simulateur

[pfortuny]

As long as it is compulsory, it is a tax. Whether it goes to your health problems or your street is irrelevant. If you have no control over the money, it is a tax.

[Xylakant]

Taxes are free to spend for the government, that is they are levied for whatever action or property the legislators choose to tax. Social security, retirement and health care plans are bound to a purpose and cannot legally be spent on other purposes. They often are compulsory but for example in Germany, health care is mandatory and regulated, but the money does not go to the state but rather to a provider of your choice.

There’s also fees that the administration can levy as payment for specific acts, they’re bound to that act.

Social security payments are not taxes.

[pfortuny]

The fact that the government promises to use that money on some thing or other does not remove the other fact: it is totally compulsory and goes to the Government (who is the only entity able to tax, properly speaking). Hence, Germany's system is not strictly speaking a tax, as one has some choice on the destination.

In the same way, donations are not tax (but because they are just contributions to the welfare, they are tax-deductible).

Compulsory Social Security payments to the Government are as much tax as VAT.

[Xylakant]

> The fact that the government promises to use that money on some thing or other does not remove the other fact: it is totally compulsory and goes to the Government (who is the only entity able to tax, properly speaking). Hence, Germany's system is not strictly speaking a tax, as one has some choice on the destination

There are lots of mandatory payments that are not taxes: To register a car, you need proof of insurance. Mandatory, government controlled, not a tax. Want to build in flood plains? Some regions enforce a flood insurance. Mandatory, not a tax. Want to register a business in germany? Need to be member of the IHK and pay membership fees. Mandatory, government enforced, not a tax.

Money paid to the Rentenversicherung, to health insurance etc does not go to the government. It goes to semi-private entities (mostly Körperschaften öffentlichen Rechts) and the government has very little control over it other than negotiating the rate and negotiating the mandatory payouts. The money does not go to the government, it cannot be spent on anything other than the purpose it way paid for: Arbeitslosenversicherung pays for the year of Arbeitslosengeld, pension funds for your pension and health insurance when you're ill. All of this may be additionally supported by taxes, but that money comes from the regular tax pool. The individual health insurance providers are actually competing and you, as a member can vote for the governing council of your health insurance.

[kogepathic]

> Social security payments are not taxes.

I agree with you. In my experience most people in Canada, and perhaps the US too, consider any government mandated deductions from your gross salary to be "taxes," regardless of the final destination of the money.

This is why you have people arguing that health care contributions and social security payments are "taxes"

Source: lived in North America and Europe