[wasterone]

>Punishing doesn’t help with learning.

The point of punishing isn't to help with learning, it's to restore the emotional connection between parent and child by stopping the parent from hating the child. As Jordan Peterson put it: 'Don't let your kids do anything that makes you dislike them'. (He said this because he knows that people who dislike others work against them whether they realise it or not.)

The arguments against punishments tend to focus on severity, particularly if physical violence is involved. But the stronger the existing connection between parent and child, the milder the punishment need be. If it is strong even a frown might suffice.

[notduncansmith]

> The point of punishing isn't to help with learning, it's to restore the emotional connection between parent and child by stopping the parent from hating the child.

Maybe I'm misreading you, but any resentment a parent builds towards their child is a symptom of their own lack of emotional development; punishment is absolutely not an outlet for making parents feel more in control so they can avoid resenting their children.

There is deliberate behavior modification, which creates an obvious consequence as a hack around the inability to comprehend more subtle ones, but doesn't involve any emotional exchange. Then there is emotional abuse that makes the abuser feel in control (guilting, shaming, yelling, etc).

Anything you don't like that comes out of a person, went into that person, either genetically or environmentally. The only way to help them stop doing that is to help them build a better platform to work from.

[wasterone]

Have you read my reply to pysc? I don't think you can 'get out of the game' of punishment. The fact is that you will punish people you are in close relationship to whether you like it or not. Even a frown or silence can be punishment and these sorts of things are not always under voluntary control.

I agree that the development of the parent is the key to reducing this. But note that development and learning themselves require peace and keeping the peace is a function of authority, both in families and in wider society. (This is not to be confused with authority in knowledge, which is irrational.)

[notduncansmith]

Yes, I saw that before commenting. I never advocated for the abolition of punishment.

What I take issue with at several levels is the use of punishment as a means of avoiding the development of parental resentment against kids, which is what it sounded like you were describing in the quote I pulled. My mistake if that's not what you were describing.

[psyc]

This is the best justification I’ve seen, though it still isn’t very good. As a child, I saw discipline as serving the convenience of the adults. Sometimes providing the adults with a sense of power over others that they couldn’t experience in their adult relationships. I have yet to see anything that would change my mind about this. The best parents I know strive to address their kids as something close to equals, as much as possible. The others are mean people who themselves lack self-control.

[wasterone]

My guess is that you saw punishment where it was excessive. This is a symptom of that lack of control at a deeper level. But control comes from self-awareness; removing authority would only make matters matters worse. Parents who try to be 'equals, as much as possible' will grow to dislike those they are responsible for and will periodically lash out in an uncontrolled manner. Literally so in some cases. Conversely, kids will willingly endure any punishment or chore in order to restore emotional connection to their parents.