[BenchRouter]

> Most people have way more taxing jobs than IT. I've been in construction for 3 years, and that work is no joke.

There's some discussion of this above, but I think it's interesting that the alternative to software development is seemingly always construction, or delivering food, or being a waiter.

Wouldn't the more apt comparison be something like law? Or medicine?

Or has software development truly reached blue-collar status and we're essentially plumbers/electricians?

I'm not accusing you of anything specifically, just using your comment to ponder.

[ThrowawayR2]

> Wouldn't the more apt comparison be something like law?

An often stressful profession, requires extensive post-graduate education (which most developers don't have), has strict licensing requirements to keep out people. Doesn't pay as well as software development, relative to the requirements and responsibility.

> Or medicine?

A highly stressful profession (your patients could die), requires extensive post-graduate education (which most developers don't have), has strict licensing requirements to keep out people, and high liability for making mistakes. Also doesn't pay as well as software development, relative to the requirements and responsibility.

Software development comes out well ahead there too.

> Or has software development truly reached blue-collar status and we're essentially plumbers/electricians?

Maybe I'm just getting jaded but I'd say yes. Outside the big 4 and a few other niches, most developers seem to just be gluing together whichever pre-made web frameworks and libraries happen to currently be in vogue. Patience with the endless yak-shaving needed to get anything to work rather than any particular technical brilliance is the primary requirement for career longevity.

[BenchRouter]

I'm not sure I buy that attorneys are significantly better educated, especially in some more traditional firms (e.g. MS) where a masters isn't unusual. It's only an additional year of schooling on top of that.

Fair point on the licensing though. Maybe that's what most commonly separates blue collar from white collar these days - licensing? Trying to think of other professions I would compare software development to, and they all require licenses (traditional engineering, for example).

> Maybe I'm just getting jaded but I'd say yes. Outside the big 4 and a few other niches, most developers seem to just be gluing together whichever pre-made web frameworks and libraries happen to currently be in vogue. Patience with the endless yak-shaving needed to get anything to work rather than any particular technical brilliance is the primary requirement for career longevity.

Yeah, I'm starting to get that impression as well.

To be fair, though, I think many US physicians would tell you a similar thing (being brilliant isn't nearly as important as how adept you are at navigating the healthcare/insurance system).

[cholantesh]

> Outside the big 4 and a few other niches, most developers seem to just be gluing together whichever pre-made web frameworks and libraries happen to currently be in vogue

Interestingly, in the last conversation I had with a friend who is a lawyer, he made a similar argument about how his career has shaped up. Most days he's just repurposing portions of existing documents into a single new one.

[jaclaz]

>There's some discussion of this above, but I think it's interesting that the alternative to software development is seemingly always construction, or delivering food, or being a waiter.

My guess is that the popularity of these professions is that they are all relatively low-qualified ones suitable to people working while studying or "filling gaps" before getting a "good job" in IT.

>Wouldn't the more apt comparison be something like law? Or medicine?

It could be, but I doubt that there are many people that after having invested in an education in either law or medicine and actually had a suitable job in those professions left them to become a full-time programmer, particularly an employed full-time programmer.

Not that it cannot happen or that never happened, but surely it is less common, and the probabilities that additionally these people will be commenting on HN are even smaller.

>Or has software development truly reached blue-collar status and we're essentially plumbers/electricians?

Since every other guy here seems to be well in the hundred of thousands US$/year or more, I would say, if this is the case, "exceptionally well paid plumbers/electricians".

[BenchRouter]

> My guess is that the popularity of these professions is that they are all relatively low-qualified ones suitable to people working while studying or "filling gaps" before getting a "good job" in IT.

Yeah, I mean I don't doubt that's why they show up frequently. It's more like: In a discussion about attorney/physician burnout, I don't often see people say "well you think being an attorney is hard? Try construction..."

The discussion in that case would be something more like, "if you don't like being an attorney go be an accountant" - something like that, if that makes any sense.

> It could be, but I doubt that there are many people that after having invested in an education in either law or medicine and actually had a suitable job in those professions left them to become a full-time programmer, particularly an employed full-time programmer.

I see what you're saying, but my point was more like: Shouldn't we be comparing software development to those professions? As in, "software development is incredibly easy compared to being an attorney"?

> Since every other guy here seems to be well in the hundred of thousands US$/year or more, I would say, if this is the case, "exceptionally well paid plumbers/electricians".

I thought that was becoming more and more common in those professions (electricians especially seem to be well compensated)?

[TheCoelacanth]

Well compensated, yes. As well compensated as software developers, no.

A median software developer makes $100k [1], a median electrician makes $52k [2] and a median plumber makes $51k [3]. Some of that disparity is because of software developers being more concentrated into high COL areas, but even comparing the same metropolitan areas there is still a large disparity. For the NYC metro area, the mean wages are $114k/$79k/$76k respectively, for Chicago $99k/$80k/$80k, for LA $107k/$65k/$58k, for Dallas $107k/$43k/$43k, for DC $114k/$58k/$55k, for Atlanta $104k/$48k/$47k.

[1] https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151132.htm

[2] https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472111.htm

[3] https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472152.htm

[closeparen]

Software development is centered in a few global headquarters cities; the trades are as dispersed as the populations they serve.

I would expect wages to be drastically lower in the trades even if standards of living are much higher. The construction contractors in my hometown own houses and late-model trucks. My software engineering colleagues rent with roommates and ride the bus for hours each day.

[TheCoelacanth]

There really aren't a lot of high paying jobs that are needed in quantities that software developers are. Take this data: https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm sort by Employment per 1000 jobs and then look for jobs with median wages no less than 15% below the median wage for "Software Developers and Programmers". The only ones you will find with a higher employment numbers are "Engineers" (all engineering occupations combined just barely beat out software developers and programmers in number employed) and a variety of management and executive categories. Lawyers have a bit more than a third of the number of jobs; physicians and surgeons are less than a fifth.

[dentemple]

>There's some discussion of this above, but I think it's interesting that the alternative to software development is seemingly always construction, or delivering food, or being a waiter.

You don't need a degree--or even any formal education at all--to become a software developer.

That's why it's often compared to blue-collar jobs.

For people like us, if we weren't developers, then blue-collar is our only other option.

[BenchRouter]

Yeah, and I think that's the interesting divide to me: I did receive a formal education, and even a Master's, in CS.

Despite that, there's very little difference between myself and another developer who has no formal education at all.

I guess I always thought of myself as a white-collar worker because of that, and this whole discussion is making me re-evaluate that. Not that the distinction is super important obviously, or that I think of myself as "better than", but I always thought of my peers as attorneys and people in finance, not construction workers.

[tonyedgecombe]

Yes, if I hadn't entered this business I'm pretty sure I'd have ended up in a trade, electrician most likely.

I sometimes wonder if that might have been an easier path, make programming a hobby rather than career.