[vetinari]

In the world of Linux distribution, they can have multiple independent repositories. When adding another one, you usually import their PGP key to establish trust. When you install Google Chrome on Linux, you will add another repository that will be responsible for further Google Chrome updates.

In the Android world, multiple app stores exist. There are stores by Amazon, Yandex, Baidu, etc.

If Apple wanted, similar mechanism could be made for iOS too.

[salvar]

> In the Android world, multiple app stores exist. There are stores by Amazon, Yandex, Baidu, etc.

Do you think non-technical users regard this as a positive or a negative?

[vetinari]

Good thing then, than in other areas of life we don't limit ourselves to lowest common denominator.

Imagine, if economy or politics worked only according to the naive users.

But to answer your question: they would get used to it. Just like to multiple tv channels or multiple car brands.

[salvar]

I could not disagree more with this view on designing for usability, but to each their own.

[tzahola]

Though politics does cater for the lowest common denominator...

[vetinari]

... by smokes and mirrors, thus selling the appearances, not by inner working.

[johnsea]

It wouldn't matter as non-technical users would use the default store as today.

[brisance]

I'm sorry but this is hypocrisy at its worst.

You say that Apple is doing this for its own financial interest yet on the other hand Yandex, Baidu, Google, Facebook and all the other companies also have to obey local laws, and are just as bad if not worse since their system of persistent user tracking is far more insidious.

Don't like Apple? Don't buy their products. Your involvement with them ends there. Don't like Google? You can't avoid them no matter what OS you are using, no matter what browser you're using etc.

[vetinari]

> I'm sorry but this is hypocrisy at its worst.

You must elaborate that more, because I can't see it.

> Yandex, Baidu, Google, Facebook and all the other companies also have to obey local laws,

Sure, but the option of third party app stores opens also option of sideloading. In the case of Apple, when Apple says no, you are without the app, period.

> and are just as bad if not worse since their system of persistent user tracking is far more insidious.

Not sure about their tracking, but they do not have an equivalent of Play Services on the devices. If you want to be really sure, use F-Droid or apps stores with the principles of F-Droid.

> Don't like Google? You can't avoid them no matter what OS you are using, no matter what browser you're using etc.

That's not true. When you use Google Search, Gmail or Youtube, it's you who entered the URL into the location bar. You can stop doing that exactly the same way, like you can not purchase Apple products.

[brisance]

>Sure, but the option of third party app stores opens also option of sideloading. In the case of Apple, when Apple says no, you are without the app, period.

This is a non-issue that people have brought up countless times. First of all, are we in agreement that app stores and other legal entities have to obey local laws? So your point is moot. Side loading is possible on iOS. You don’t even need to own a Mac to develop for iOS. [1,2,3,4] There is also the open web to fall back on.

And you are incorrect about user tracking. Just a day ago Google was caught tracking users even when location services are turned off. [5] And please educate yourself about modern ad tracking [6]

[1] https://www.outsystems.com

[2] https://www.xamarin.com

[3] https://cordova.apache.org

[4] https://www.xojo.com

[5] https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locatio...

[6] https://donttrack.us/

[vetinari]

> This is a non-issue that people have brought up countless times.

Does not make their argument right or correct.

> First of all, are we in agreement that app stores and other legal entities have to obey local laws?

Proactive censorship, company policies or business interests do not align to local laws 1:1. Porn, BitTorrent, gab.ai or countless other banned applications are not illegal, yet you are not going to be able to install them on your Apple device.

> Side loading is possible on iOS.

By jailbreaking?

> You don’t even need to own a Mac to develop for iOS.

We are not talking about development, but about loading a binary on the device and running it. TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

> And you are incorrect about user tracking. Just a day ago Google was caught tracking users even when location services are turned off.

On Android devices with Play Store (aka Google proprietary app) installed. And they apologized for that, and are removing it.

> And please educate yourself about modern ad tracking

If you are concerned about ad tracking and you don't use any adblocker, at least educate yourself about capabilities of the current browsers[1].

[1] https://www.ghacks.net/2017/11/22/how-to-enable-first-party-...

[brisance]

>Does not make their argument right or correct.<

It makes it tiresome to reply.

>Proactive censorship, company policies or business interests do not align to local laws 1:1. Porn, BitTorrent, gab.ai or countless other banned applications are not illegal, yet you are not going to be able to install them on your Apple device.<

"Banned applications are not illegal"; that's an oxymoron.

Side loading has been done on iOS. Refer to Apple Developer Enterprise Program. [1] Cardiogram has also successfully side-loaded apps on iOS. [2] But it seems I won't be able to convince you since you cannot agree that a curated marketplace has value and that people desire this.

>We are not talking about development, but about loading a binary on the device and running it. TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.<

Refer to the two links cited below.

>On Android devices with Play Store (aka Google proprietary app) installed. And they apologized for that, and are removing it.<

That's a SEPARATE Google tracking issue (hur hur) in April 2017. Did you even read the link I posted? It was discovered 2 days ago now.

Ultimately, Apple has to obey the law in China. The "wisdom" of allowing side-loading to sidestep public policy issues exposes a wide target that is prone to abuse and leads to bad outcomes.

[1] https://developer.apple.com/programs/enterprise/

[2] https://cardiogr.am/

[vetinari]

> "Banned applications are not illegal"; that's an oxymoron.

I don't follow your logic there, care to elaborate? Banning is done by Apple; legality is determined by courts, based on laws. Has any of these apps ruled illegal by court? Of course not. As I already wrote, company policies are not 1:1 map to laws, there's much more that goes into them, especially things like business interests and partnerships, but also things like ideology or subjective moral judgement.

> Refer to Apple Developer Enterprise Program. [1]

You can't be serious. So your grandmother is going to found a company, then get a DUNS number, so she can sideload an app?

The second link says exactly nothing about sideloading. On contrary, it has big Apple Store button.

> But it seems I won't be able to convince you since you cannot agree that a curated marketplace has value and that people desire this.

For convincing, it helps to have valid, logical arguments.

You don't seem to understand, that curated marketplace and sideloading are not mutually exclusive. Those, who want that marketplace, can choose from curated selection. Those, who want to sideload, can. In your model, where the curation is enforced on everyone, it is being turned into control for what's allowed and what is not.

> Ultimately, Apple has to obey the law in China. The "wisdom" of allowing side-loading to sidestep public policy issues exposes a wide target that is prone to abuse and leads to bad outcomes.

Ultimately, by allowing side-loading they are not responsible for whatever the user side loads at all, because they do not control this distribution channel. Just like Microsoft is not responsible for whatever you run on your Windows machine and Linus Torvalds is not responsible for whatever you run on your Linux machine.