[couchand]

I think there is a concern in our society that both men and women tend to spend an inordinate amount of time judging and commenting on the appearance, tone, and other superficial characteristics of women. If we're to make effective progress as a society we need to be very careful about this.

My reading of awesomepantsm's comment is that it conveys the idea that it doesn't matter what any of us think about what someone is wearing, we should be concerned with the thoughts they are expressing.

I never saw your post in the original form, only in the shortest version and then with the most recent edit. I found your blog post on my own, and I see it's much more nuanced than your comment here (I suppose that's to be expected).

Your blog post seems to indicate that you wouldn't dress like that. Fair enough, the rationale you describe is illuminating. But how does that extend to a normative expectation on the behavior of another? That's what I think is problematic.

[Mz]

I wouldn't dress that way because I am 52 and I don't look like that. If you've got it, flaunt it. If I looked like that, I might be doing exactly the same thing.

But the main point of my post is this: years of trying to get meaty engagement on HN has taught me that men will tend to see me through the lens of sex first and foremost. It has proven to be counterproductive to either expect men to never think of me that way, or to actively encourage that focus or cooperate with other people framing me as primarily or solely a sex object.

It was written in hopes of helping women think about how to effectively navigate a man's world. It has nothing to do with suggesting a normative anything.

I am saying that a woman's sexuality is hers to do with as she pleases. In my experience, that is an extremely radical position. Lots of men would like women to be more free to say yes to them. That doesn't mean they like it when someone like me says "They are free to use it any damn way they so choose, your agenda to fuck them be damned."

[couchand]

Perhaps I misinterpreted your previous comment "I think she ought to tone it down a bit."

[Mz]

As stated in the blog post, if I were her, I would tone down the internet stuff to be less in your face blatantly sexual in terms of framing of photos while continuing to dress exactly the same way.

It is a position of "I can dress any damn way I want for my own pleasure, no I am not your whore."

It is her body. Some pictures currently frame it as a toy for any internet stranger. I would stop doing that one thing. That's it.

[couchand]

I guess I didn't make my point clear: I think there's a big difference between "I would do X" and "she ought to do X".

[Mz]

I am not telling her what to do. My blog post makes it as clear as I know how that I am using her as an example to elucidate a thought process.

My initial comment here was really more to express sympathy for people saying "I am male and it is inherently problematic for me to look at her work or share her work because of the images of her that are associated with it." I think that is a completely valid concern and it is one of the reasons I work at trying to make sure I do my best to present myself in a fashion that doesn't raise such questions.

I am sure I don't always get it right, but I try to be mindful of the fact that if I want to be taken seriously and do business with men, it is easier for them to talk to me, make introductions and share my work if they don't have to explain that, no, I am not a hooker, not their illicit lover, and they aren't interested in my writing for its salacious nature. Men in positions of power often need to meet a test of no appearance of impropriety. Some men simply are not going to open doors for me if they have any reason to feel that it will lead to talk. That is the reality I am dealing with. Getting on a soap box about how it shouldn't matter how I look does not strike me as an effective approach to the problem in question.

People are often talking about abstract ideals when they talk about sexism. I am usually speaking of a pragmatic approach that has some hope of actually working in the real word. I am not holding my breath waiting for some ideal world to arrive. I need to eat in the here and now.