[ThrustVectoring]

Yeah, same here. I'm not willing to stick my neck out for putting tech money into progressive causes (or conservative causes, for that matter). I'm willing to stick my neck out for better working conditions, retirement plans, professionalism standards, and fairness in equity compensation.

[eropple]

And do you think that you can really do that without working with other people?

I'm not the biggest fan of Tech Solidarity, but they understand, at least, that we (folks who work, as opposed to folks who own) are more in it together than we're not. Labor history bears this out; they can read a map.

[ThrustVectoring]

Of course not. I simply recognize that pushing political agendas both alienates natural economic allies, and opens the door to co-opting the organization for things of no benefit to tech workers as a class.

Like, I don't give a fuck if people understand broad overarching concepts of solidarity and togetherness. Maybe I'm just a huge sperg, but what I want is concrete work on making tech work better. Make a flyer explaining stock compensation and how shady employers will structure things to screw you over, and publicize the shit out of it so that employers can't claim ignorance. Name-and-shame employers for having equity compensation terms so bad that they grants are effectively worthless. Something.

[pjc50]

> I'm willing to stick my neck out for better working conditions, retirement plans, professionalism standards, and fairness in equity compensation.

That is a progressive cause, no?

[fortythirteen]

Progressives like to think they're the only ones who care about that when, in reality, everyone except the strictest libertarian wants all of those things.

What frustrates me personally is the inability of many progressives to rationalize anything other than Marxist/socialist means for those ends and then act as if everyone who doesn't believe in those means doesn't share those end goals.

[burntsushi]

Even the "strictest libertarian" might want those things. As you say, the difference can be in the means, not the ends.

[uoaei]

"Progressives" (whatever you think that label means) aren't the only people who support those causes. It seems like you're getting caught up on some private subtext assigned to the word "progressive."

Just curious, do you consider progressives the identity politics fanatics and staunch neoliberals? I'd spend some time arguing they're not progressively oriented at all.

[pjc50]

> rationalize anything other than Marxist/socialist means

What does this actually mean?

[Bartweiss]

Throwing around 'Marxist' seems extreme here, but I think I recognize the sentiment. There are a lot of ways to improve the position of workers, and historically progressivism has been interested in some and opposed to others.

Two examples:

If you want to improve salaries, you can do that via unionization and lobbying for guaranteed raises. That's a popular leftist approach. You can also do that by advocating for bonuses based on personal achievement or corporate profit. The left has generally been disinterested in that, and has indirectly opposed it by advocating for higher taxes on bonuses.

If you want to expand worker influence on how companies are run, you can found co-ops, establish worker's councils, and so on; these are popular leftist programs. You can also give meaningfully-large stock grants to large numbers of employees - equity-granting startups are worker-owned every bit as much as co-ops. This isn't a leftist initiative at all, and has been indirectly opposed by calls to heavily tax options and capital gains even when they're being given in lieu of salary.

I don't especially want to debate any of those as policies; it's just a demonstration of what some leftist and non-leftist roads to labor power look like.

[fortythirteen]

Considering some of the loudest voices on the strong to far left today are self avowed Marxists, especially in labor movements, I don't think it's even a stretch or "throwing around terms". In fact, 'social justice' is a term directly attributed to the philosophies of Karl Marx.

I'm not an extremest on the other end, but it is not disingenuous to state that much of the left's visions are directly "Marxist". What would you call the idea of a "base livable wage" or "equity over equality"?

[justin66]

> Considering some of the loudest voices on the strong to far left today are self avowed Marxists, especially in labor movements, I don't think it's even a stretch or "throwing around terms".

The most historically important labor union of our time, Solidarność, was the largest player in driving the Communists out of Poland and bringing back capitalism. It doesn't seem to me that you're throwing around terms, it's more like you're just sort of wandering around accidentally dropping them on the floor.

Which is possibly rude to say, but the first person to use the word "postmodernism" in a conversation earns some demerits. (edit: that wasn't you. My bad!)

Another poster pointed out that a labor union is a bunch of laborers standing in solidarity for something they want. Acting as if that is always the same... well, have fun with that.

[crdoconnor]

>If you want to improve salaries, you can do that via unionization and lobbying for guaranteed raises. That's a popular leftist approach. You can also do that by advocating for bonuses based on personal achievement or corporate profit. The left has generally been disinterested in that, and has indirectly opposed it by advocating for higher taxes on bonuses.

The reason they are disinterested in bonuses based upon personal achievement is because it is guaranteed to be used as a tool for favoritism and divide and rule, which ultimately just lowers worker compensation.

It will only work if the measure is objective, which is almost always impossible.

[justin66]

The counterexample to both these points is a union like the Screen Actors Guild, which allows superstars to be compensated accordingly and does not depend on something like objective measures of achievement. If I were a tech worker in a union I'd want it to go in that direction, as opposed to something like the traditional UAW.

[fortythirteen]

> The reason they are disinterested in bonuses based upon personal achievement is because it is guaranteed to be used as a tool for favoritism and divide and rule, which ultimately just lowers worker compensation.

And this doesn't happen in unions? The only difference is in who's getting bribed, management or the union boss.

[fortythirteen]

Using tech industry working conditions as an example, progressives, on average, see the solution in unionizing (more bureaucracy, and the key breeding grounds for Bolshevik-like movements).

They tend to dismiss the more incentive-based approach of ending the abuse of the H1-B system, which is the key market driver for artificially low wages and poorer working conditions. This is because doing so is at odds with the post-modernist ideal of a borderless society.

[chimeracoder]

> This is because doing so is at odds with the post-modernist ideal of a borderless society.

nit: "a borderless society" is compatible with postmodernist framing, but it is not the necessary outcome of one. Postmodernism is a category of schools of though, not a single one, and so some schools of postmodernism advocate a borderless society, but others are opposed to it.

[justin66]

It means some people use the words "Marxist" and "socialist" without any care as to what they actually mean.

[fortythirteen]

See my other comments for how your allegation is baseless. From my perspective, so many "progressives" don't know the history of their own adopted philosophies (or previously attempted applications of them) to be able to properly categorize their origins in Marxism.

[ThrowawayR2]

> That is a progressive cause, no?

Differing opinions are welcome but the last time I felt worker welfare was truly a core cause of the progressive mainstream was around the 1970s. It certainly wasn't by the 1990s and doesn't even seem to even be on the radar today as far as I can tell.

[ThrustVectoring]

In principle, yes, but there's a huge empathy gap from most people involved in pushing progressive causes. Like, I'd expect a lot of those folks to straight-up mock us for bringing up open offices as an issue while being white men with six figure salaries.

[tptacek]

You hear objections like this and you wonder how self-aware the people making them are. Principles are things you'll advocate for even when others mock you for them. Equally importantly: if "someone might mock me" is going to stop you from doing something, how do you do anything, ever? Are we on the same Internet?

[ThrustVectoring]

I meant to make a point more like "I don't give money to people who obviously hold me in contempt."

[analogist]

> I’m not willing to stick my neck out

> empathy gap

Maybe if you were more open to helping them with threats to their livelihood, dignity, and well-being, they’d be more open to helping you with yours?

I don’t know, just a thought.

[lmm]

Traditionally yes, but it's not one that modern progressives seem to have much interest in.

[krakensden]

No, we're too rich.

[crdoconnor]

It's not politics if there isn't horse trading. Single issue pressure groups that do not form alliances with other groups do not achieve anything meaningful.

[ThrustVectoring]

It's not horse trading if the very first thing you try to do is try to help out other groups. That's not forming alliances, that's selling your organization into chattel slavery.

Find the points where some dedicated work can help out tech workers as a class and push on them. Then once you have something worth trading for, sell it dearly and hold out for something worthwhile. IMO something like a volunteer writer to put out educational material relevant to working conditions in tech is probably the best bang-for-buck. Teach people how and why to job-hop and negotiate, make it concise, informative, and helpful, and put up a standard link to organization and request to sign up for the mailing list. Bog-standard growth-hacking, except peddling a professional organization rather than some startup's SaaS product.