[dep_b]

The greatest argument against the death penalty is that it's not applied to the people that deserve it the most. Not only did the pharmaceutical industry earn billions by pushing addictive opioids to people but they also charge people up the nose for the injections they need after they OD'ed because they got addicted. People are still getting filthy rich literally over other people's deaths. In the name of health.

I know a lot of people love capitalism here and I think it works pretty great if you apply it to a lot of markets. But health isn't something that can be regulated by capitalism.

You can buy the new iPhone or you don't. It's a decision. You can make a stupid decision and buy it while you really should feed your kids instead but it's still a decision.

Health issues are not. Nobody decides to have cancer next year because this year things look a bit uncertain at work right now. It just hits you.

Free markets only work when somebody is free to decide.

[nickik]

You argument that nobody decides to have cancer is true but it applies to tons of stuff. You don't decide that your car breaks down. You don't decide that a storm is coming. You don't decide the change in import controls for goods from China. There are literally millions of things that you don't decide.

The very reason we have capitalism is that we have dynamic system that reacts to feedback and finds or at least moves the system towards a new optimal point given the new circumstances.

If there is a operation that exists free market would make that operation as cheap as possible and weather it is your decision to need the operation or not, you will still get a very cheap operation. For the market is irrelevant why the demand exists, but it will attempt to satisfy that demand and we are all better for it.

So the problem with opioids is about demand.

People should trust doctors to give sound advice regarding their opioid consumption, as they do with many other things. The majority of people don't want to be addicted and are happy to comply with measures.

There are a couple problems, first, the doctors primary earn money by selling stuff thanks to the perverse system of intensives that the modern american health care system produces.

Second, there was a actual problem where doctors in the US, by themselves started to over-issue these drugs, and they still do. That is as much a cultural problem as it is anything else. This has to change.

Third, I think its pretty clear that the distribution and demographics about this issue tell a story that is hard to explain by a general 'evil capitalist' pushing pills on people. It is clear that some communities are dis-proportionally effected and that is a more deterministic factor then the price of the pills.

Fourth, if there were actually free markets people would buy high quality product that does not kill you. People who take it might be addicts but you can be high functioning and your chances of recovery are much better then with this disgusting stuff people are forced to consume because of government regulation.

[dep_b]

A car analogies, the best ones!

If your car breaks down there are other means of transportation like getting a Uber, renting a car, carpooling, riding a bicycle or even walking. This is the typical "infinite" possibilities situation where capitalism really blossoms. I personally don't own a car because exactly all of those reasons, so I chose to never have a car that I need to repair. I hate things to maintain.

Now imagine a situation where you are only allowed to go to your work in a car, nothing else. If you don't go to your work you will be fired and you will never find another job again (i.e. dead). And the spare part you need for it to get it working again is only available through one source that for some reason charges about 100 times more than it takes to manufacture the part itself. You are not allowed to have any other car than the one you currently own, not even the same one new.

Now that's how having cancer works in the field of choice.

People choose to live near volcanoes, mountains, oceans. Places where tornadoes are frequent. There's a good reason most people on Earth never saw one.

Though I agree somewhat on most of your points. Actually one of the biggest problems is that nor the legal opioids nor heroin are freely available towards consumers. A lot of people are killed because impurities or more unhealthy alternatives. Again, mixing pure capitalism without the real choice makes things really ugly.

But there's a huge incentive to make money not on the best solution for the patient but based on the largest kickback for the doctor and the biggest profit margins for the industry.

[miej]

Except this is an actual known "evil capitalist" scenario, where pharma execs literally bribed doctors to over-prescribe opioids. RICO conspiracy charges are generally reserved for the likes of the mafia, and even then are rare due to the overwhelming burden of proof required. I'm honestly not sure who I consider worse in this case: the pharma execs handing out bribes, or the doctors who accepted them.

Reference: https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/pharmaceutical-executives...

[nickik]

I believe this exists, but I don't think that is the majority of cases.

There was genuine movement among doctors in the US, with serious people writing about how pain was not necessary. It is also the case that legally in the US you can be accessed of not addressing peoples pain enough.

Also again, if doctors had an intensive to care for their patient they would have to be more careful about what they give to them.

[corvallis]

I’d encourage you to read a book called Drug Dealer, MD. It details how pain was made “the fifth vital sign” and doctors could lose their board certification and license if patients filed complaints alleging that their pain was not adequately treated by their provider. Even today, surveys that are sent out following hospital encounters ask people if their pain was addressed to their satisfaction. It’s difficult to withhold opioids when your livelihood is on the line.

[nickik]

Yes. That is very much a problem.

But its not a problem with capitalism, it just depends on what your legal rights are. Any institutional setup could have the same problem.

'Dreamlands' addressed the same problem.

[hycaria]

You know this problem is not really prevalent in places with legit healthcare systems, Europe amongst all ? And that we don't pop opiods to all suffering patients, ie we can allow things to hurt a bit sometimes it's not that big a deal, and it's surely better than getting hooked to stuff.

Why blame the pharmaceutical industry. Your practitionners and your patients have a problem.

[drpgq]

There's plenty of opiate addicts in Canada. Although some would argue about whether our healthcare system is legit.

[Feniks]

Its not a Jewish conspiracy.

People take drugs because they are unhappy. Show me a drug addict and I'll show you someone with a mental illness, trauma or severe life problems.

Apparently in the US right now there are lots of people who feel pretty bad about life. I can relate.

But Jewish conspiracy is easier to grasp and deal with.

[nkkollaw]

It's pharma who let this happen, on purpose.

[lettergram]

Our healthcare is commically not a capitalist one. You make a blanket claim that healthcare can't be regulated by capitalism.

I'd argue if the U.S. had a health care market closer to Iran or something it would actually be better. Like, I should be able to sell my organs if I want. I should be able to buy weed instead of opiods. And so on... Then look at all the medical doctors graduating. Their numbers haven't changed since the 90s, because then they make more money due to scarcity.

[krisives]

Can chose to not use heroin and other drugs - like most of society had informed you - and there is infinite amount of data available to anyone looking.

[dep_b]

The addiction initially wasn't fed by illegal opioids with a bad reputation like heroin but by prescribed medication by a trusted authority. Perhaps some people might go directly to heroin now because there's so much of it going around but the initial wave of addicts was created by companies.

[fapjacks]

Now, now. Are you implying everyone is always making decisions purely intellectually with no other inputs? People make stupid decisions for stupid reasons all the time. In fact most of the time. That doesn't make it any less of a choice.

[krisives]

It's as much of your choice to use a heroin needle as it is to buy an iPhone is my point.

[mercer]

I've been a teenager and I've known a lot of teenagers. I can totes see a teenager get into heroin for all sorts of stupid reasons. Because teenagers are idiots [1].

I prefer a society where a stupid decision at that age can be corrected for at a later time. I prefer it over a society that oversimplifies all this to 'choice', going against so much of what we've learned about human nature over the past decades.

[1]: Adults are also idiots. People are idiots. Rationality is our weapon against it, but it's so effective precisely because we're so irrational by 'default'. I'm baffled how people can still hold a worldview where 'choice' is somehow a simple concept.

[krisives]

My bad you're forced to use heroine then I guess