You're implying the opioid epidemic is in part due to Reddit banning subreddits filled with hateful speech?* Or what? You're also making some odd as hell "both sides"-ish argument somewhere in there that I can't even parse.
I'm sorry, but we don't have to give spaces for people to be hateful - Reddit banning those assholes was the highlight of my week. I'm not trying to claim that these people should just be ignored, but you're conflating very separate problems.
More importantly, the people being affected by the opioid crisis are predominantly not members of these hateful groups, and I'm pretty frustrated you would conflate them in such a way just so you can have an excuse to talk about the loss of a safe space for hateful rhetoric.
*EDIT: After rereading what the poster wrote a few times, I believe they were attempting to claim that the subreddit bans would encourage more people to head to drug use, rather than vice-versa as I originally interpreted it - it's still pretty off-topic though, and again I'm not very sympathetic to people being sad they no longer have a place to be hateful.
I'd appreciate it if you'd remove your comment since I tried to back out immediately from that line of conversation. Would you mind agreeing?
If so, edit your comment to [removed] and I'll delete this one.
Otherwise, I can try to explain my original motives, and what I observed. But it's a tricky conversation to have, and there's a high chance people's tendency to instantly turn to hatred will focus on me. I'd rather pass.
> I'd appreciate it if you'd remove your comment since I tried to back out immediately from that line of conversation. Would you mind agreeing?
Two days ago, I saw you post something asinine and I tried to respond. You deleted your comment before I could hit the reply button, and I lost the opportunity to quote and refute you.
If this is a recurring problem (that you change your mind about statements on a public forum), think a bit more before posting.
If I delete my comment and you can't respond, that's a feature, not a bug. This kind of comment is best left to an email.
The reason I backed out of this subthread is very simple: the first few replies were vaguely insinuating I might somehow be sympathetic to neonazis. That was enough for me to hit the "forget this" button.
> the first few replies were vaguely insinuating I might somehow be sympathetic to neonazis.
Please stop being so defensive. People dog-piled on you because they thought you said something dumb. They're not being "hateful" or "violent". Those words have meanings, and their meanings are actually directly related to why Reddit banned those subreddits. If you can't tell the difference between me saying "Yo your opinion is dumb and here's why" and "You're black you need to leave" then just wow, you may need to take a step away from the Internet for awhile.
I brought up Neo-Nazis and the Alt-Right because they were the main ones affected by the Reddit bans and your comment did not do enough to distance whatever you were talking about from them. Also, the Alt-Right had a large overlap with the subreddits you do seem to be talking about.
If you want to have a conversation about such a thing, I'm happy to engage over private message. But you bringing it up was so tangental, so unrelated, and so odd that I could not resist calling you out on it.
But again, it was just so out of place in a discussion where people are talking about the opioid crisis. The argument you're trying to make is horribly tangental and out of place.
To be especially frank: people are reacting to you so negatively because your comments are completely unrelated and showed an intense desire to discuss the subreddit bans. When we called you out on this, you got extraordinarily defensive and realized the conversation wasn't going to go your way. So you backed down. Welcome to intellectual discourse. If you don't feel confident defending your opinions in such a space...well maybe they're not opinions that you can defend very well.
If you don't feel confident defending your opinions in such a space
The point of HN is to be a search for the truth among colleagues, not a verbal barfight. The fact that you wanted to get into one immediately says a lot about both sides of the conversation.
your comment did not do enough to distance whatever you were talking about from them
You didn't even briefly pause to question whether I might be associated with them. Why should I need to distance myself from them when I'm merely talking about them? The causal linkage is backwards here.
Maybe you feel bad about reacting so harshly and are now backpedaling. Either way, you shouldn't get to force the conversation into a private message:
If you want to have a conversation about such a thing, I'm happy to engage over private message. But you bringing it up was so tangental, so unrelated, and so odd that I could not resist calling you out on it.
If I bring up a topic substantively, honestly, and in a way that's a search for the truth, it shouldn't matter whether it's done in public or in private.
Actually, I'm trying to have a nuanced conversation on a sensitive topic with an open mind.
I get the feeling this is one of the things that no one wants to discuss, or at least it's a bad idea to try to discuss it.
Note how violent and immediate the reaction was, right when I tried to point to a segment of people who are the most likely to be in the target segment of the original article. I don't feel like martyring myself, so I won't push it further. But suffice to say, it does not seem like we as a society are ready to have hard conversations about why people turn to drugs.
Just to be clear for those coming to this after the fact: the reaction was not violent and immediate. Your comment was not nuanced. And it was very much not sensitive.
You attempted to claim that such overdoses are in part due to Reddit (and society in general) ostracizing neo-nazis and members of hateful groups. Not only is this just wrong, it implies that many affected by the crisis are members of such groups, which they are not (as someone who has a family member addicted to opioids I'm very annoyed by your comparison).
You just wanted to talk about your Neo-Nazi subreddits getting taken away and people called you out on it. Frankly, a Neo-nazi should be an outcast. A racist, sexist, etc should be excluded. And if they don't like that, then they should stop being a Nazi before turning to drugs.
My point was solely "A certain subreddit got banned. Those people seem to have very few options, and maybe they were using it as a support group. They might turn to drugs now."
The reaction violent and immediate: within 5 minutes of posting the comment, you're now trying to imply some very strange things about me. You're even going so far as to "clarify" things for readers by posting something I did not say.
I'd like to end this conversation, because HN is optimized for good conversation and this isn't heading anywhere productive. Agreed?
I have a family member affected by a similar crisis, though thankfully not quite as intense. I'm sorry that the comparison annoyed you, but I was just searching for answers.
"We need to kick you out of the country" is a violent reaction.
"What are you talking about this is dumb" is not a violent reaction.
You shared your ideas, they obviously weren't taken as good ideas by the group here, and people told you so.
No one called for violence against you, no one called you names (as far as I can tell), just no one agreed with you, and maybe a liiiiittle discourteously.
It was violent in the sense of a chemical reaction. It also violently curtailed any chance of intellectual conversation. For that, I regret saying anything.
I'm not upset about mere disagreement. I'm upset that I was searching openly and honestly for an answer to this crisis that affects all of us, and in exchange I was labeled a neonazi sympathizer. On HN of all places.
The conversation shouldn't be about me and my ideas. That's selfish and counterproductive to HN's aims. The goal is to gratify intellectual curiosity, and the subthread I started here is the opposite of that.
HN isn't a place for ideological battle. The fact that two members of the community decided to immediately call out my bullshit suggests that HN wasn't the appropriate venue for this conversation.
> I have a family member affected by a similar crisis, though thankfully not quite as intense. I'm sorry that the comparison annoyed you, but I was just searching for answers.
Sorry to read about your family situation. That said...
There is an entire field dedicated to this. In the spirit of DRY, let's not spin our wheels with hackneyed theories, thinking we'll do better than the individuals that dedicate their lives to rigorously testing hypothesis and formulating therapies.
The question of whether or not your arguments have merit won’t even get entered upon, nor will the authority ever be able to repeat back your arguments in a form you’d recognize—for even repeating the arguments correctly could invite accusations of secretly agreeing with them. Instead, the sole subject of interest will be you: who you think you are, what your motivations were to utter something so divisive and hateful.
Suffice to say, it wasn't too smart to even broach the topic. It derailed the conversation, for one. For two, it didn't lead anywhere productive.
Personally, I appreciate your efforts at discussing sensitive topics. I encourage you to keep doing so, as honestly but sensitively as you can. While the "Kolmogorov option" might maximize your personal outcome, this doesn't mean it's best for the group to encourage you to take it. You probably already read the recent discussion by another Scott A? https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/23/kolmogorov-complicity-...
I'm sorry, but we don't have to give spaces for people to be hateful - Reddit banning those assholes was the highlight of my week. I'm not trying to claim that these people should just be ignored, but you're conflating very separate problems.
More importantly, the people being affected by the opioid crisis are predominantly not members of these hateful groups, and I'm pretty frustrated you would conflate them in such a way just so you can have an excuse to talk about the loss of a safe space for hateful rhetoric.
*EDIT: After rereading what the poster wrote a few times, I believe they were attempting to claim that the subreddit bans would encourage more people to head to drug use, rather than vice-versa as I originally interpreted it - it's still pretty off-topic though, and again I'm not very sympathetic to people being sad they no longer have a place to be hateful.