[jbooth]

Well, your parents being poor isn't a racial matter. If you were black, you'd catch more crap in most countries. In most countries on earth (and I believe this is true in south africa as well), it's just plain easier to be white. So good for you for achieving whatever you have in life and overcoming whatever obstacles you've overcome, but the world's racial intolerance of white people isn't one of those obstacles.

[w00pla]

> In most countries on earth (and I believe this is true in south africa as well), it's just plain easier to be white.

This is your naivety speaking. A poor white person in South Africa is fucked. Here is why: - It is impossible to get any type of government job (includes military, government owned institutions such as Transnet, Eskom, Telkom, etc…). - White people are not eligible for any scholarships or bursaries (government or otherwise). - Entrance into university is determined by racial quotas. For a white person going to a fancy private school, it is possible – but not for a poor white person that has to go to a government school. - It is very difficult for a young white person to get a job in the private industry. Because companies have quotas, they have to preferentially hire black people. White people with scare skills can get a job – but for manual labour, it is easy to preferentially higher a black person. - Rich White and black people look down on poor white people. - Many middle income white people received “severance packages” to make space for black people (both private and government jobs). This is basically their pension as a lump sum. Many had to start business in order to survive – some made it, some were screwed. Starting your life from square 1 when you are 50 is not easy.

> So good for you for achieving whatever you have in life and overcoming whatever obstacles you've overcome,

Nice sarcasm. The point I tried to make was that, if just one little thing went different in my life, I would have been fucked.

> but the world's racial intolerance of white people isn't one of those obstacles.

You assume that the world is exactly like where you are from. The problem is that SA is a black majority country with a black government. So their intolerance towards white people is much greater (than for instance the USA government).

The difference between rich and skilled white people and poor white people is that skilled white people still have a skill that is needed (so they are not as expendable as poor white people).

I also guess that you would not view a leading figure in the ruling government (and probably next president) encouraging genocide of white people.

---

I’ve recently come to the conclusion that hate for white people in South Africa – especially Afrikaans people is pretty high in the USA. It seems that the consensus is that white people do not belong in Africa and if they are poor it is either their fault or they deserve it.

The problem is that the poor are a lot less socially mobile and it is impossible for them to immigrate. They are simply stuck between a hostile government and bad economic situation.

[jbooth]

Well, I did qualify with "I believe" on South Africa. You'd obviously know better than I would about what it's like there, but most of what I've read indicates that there isn't a ton of discrimination against white people, especially considering recent history. Sure, there has been upheaval there -- upheaval from a ridiculously racist apartheid system. Trying to claim that whites have it worse seems pretty tough to me, how do you quantify 60 years of institutionalized racism? The whole truth and reconciliation thing seems to have gone about as well as anything ever, considering the alternatives.

Zimbabwe, you'd have a definite point. There's an example of bonafide economic discrimination against white people.

[w00pla]

> but most of what I've read indicates that there isn't a ton of discrimination against white people, especially considering recent history.

Then you read interesting material. There is quite a bit discrimination against white people. If the second most powerful person in the ANC calls for genocide against white people, don’t you think that there is no discrimination?

I’ve given you numerous examples. Here is one more: for any empowerment scheme, companies are forced to sell stock. A white person cannot buy it – yet a black person can. Here is another: A white person cannot get a loan at the Land Bank. Yet the former deputy president could get a multimillion rand loan for a new car - even though he is not a farmer.

Most people in the West take quite a bit of joy out of poor white people in South Africa. I was surprised at the level of hate among American citizens for white people. Just as you are cheerleaders for Mugabe during the 80ies and 90ies, you are now a cheerleader for the ANC government.

> Trying to claim that whites have it worse seems pretty tough to me, how do you quantify 60 years of institutionalized racism?

Yet the current government is worse than Apartheid. Let’s compare the fate of black Africans now and during Apartheid.

The Mbeki government refused to give ARVs to HIV positive people. Most white people wanted the government to do that. The policy by the black Thabo Mbeki government cost the lives of at least 365,000 people (mostly black). It seems that for USA citizens, black people killing black people are OK! (I did not even year call for sanctions for a thing that was clearly genocide).

The petty Mbeki government also refused Nevaripine to HIV positive mothers. A few pills (costing less than $1) could have prevented many AIDS infections among newborns. You know that it was white South Africans who fought tooth and nail to force the government to do that?

Here is a NYTimes article you can read: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/26/world/africa/26aids.html

Life expectancy fell almost 1 year for each year after 1994. Life expectancy among all South Africans dropped 14.32 years from 1995 to 2009.

That is the black government that did it. Here we use 1995 stats for 1994 since a new statistical regime was instituted. http://jae.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/16/5/813 2003 Broad def. Unemployment: 29.4% 2003 Broad def. Unemployment: 42.7% 1995 Narrow def. Unemployment: 17.0% 2003 Narrow def. Unemployment 30%

Unemployment increased from 2003 to 2010 too! In the 60ies and 70ies (the heyday of Apartheid before sanctions) unemployment among all populations was between 4.5% and 6.5%.

Real income also decreased significantly (1995 to 2003 period): Agricultural work: 11.9% decline in real earnings Domestic work: 19.1% decline in real earnings Informal work: 82.5% decline in real earnings.

The education system also collapsed. Three leading authorities on education (one of them Steve Biko’s wife) said that the quality of schooling significantly decreased since the end of Apartheid.

The current president of South Africa (Jacob Zuma) said that the previous minister of education (under the black Mbeki government) were worse than Apartheid (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3045&#3...):

> "Asmal is a man who believes he knows everything. What he did was worse than what the apartheid regime did to our education system," he was quoted as saying.

> The whole truth and reconciliation thing seems to have gone about as well as anything ever, considering the alternatives.

No it hasn’t – except for ANC fat cats. The country is in serious risk of destabilising. Recent “service delivery” and anti-Zimbabwean riots have shown that. How much do you think the poverty can increase before South Africa destabilises?

> Zimbabwe, you'd have a definite point. There's an example of bonafide economic discrimination against white people.

You know that South Africa is ten years (maybe 15) behind Zimbabwe?

Everything that happened in Zimbabwe is happening in South Africa now. [There have been calls to take white people’s farms]( http://www.mg.co.za/article/2010-04-09-the-militant-pacifist), calls to nationalise the mines (this will happen in 5 years). [The ANC’s number two man has called for white farmers]( http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?art_id=vn20100310041938251C30...) to be killed (the murder rate for white farmers is already 6 times the national average – i.e. 300 per 100,000 per year).

Btw, I have not even talked about the fact that violent deaths tripled since the end of Apartheid.

[jbooth]

Ok so now we're being nostalgic about fucking apartheid?

Gimme a break. I'm sooo sorry you had to start treating black people like human beings. I know it's such a drag.

At least we know what's really bugging you.

[w00pla]

> Ok so now we're being nostalgic about fucking apartheid?

You are completely misrepresenting my views (again)! It seems that you are disinterested in having a coherent argument, and just like to impress your very warped views onto others.

> I'm sooo sorry you had to start treating black people like human beings.

You know that I was 2 when Mandela was released? I had no voting power. But let’s use your argument on yourself: you are personally responsible for the deaths of one million people in Afghanistan and Iraq (hey, at least you could have voted).

You are also responsible for American slavery and Vietnam. You deserve to be poor and never have a right to anything. You are also responsible for the firebombing of Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

By the way. Why are American Indians still living in reservations? You are responsible for propping up dictators (e.g. Saudi Arabia).

Don't be so quick as to wish other people's rights away for past wrongs. You will find then that Americans do not deserve any.

> At least we know what's really bugging you.

Whats bugging me is people like you which form impressions on little information but are so sure about themselves (even when they are wrong). Every argument I made, I fully backed up with statistics.

You try the emotional line. A lot of people (like yourself) like to simplify complex situations (hey 11 national languages – SA can’t be that complex!) into simple little black and white views – unable to have any nuanced views.

Such simplifications only led to pain and suffering – and some genocide (e.g. Gukurahundi).