[danbruc]

Usually you will get at least a 4 week notice in Germany and this increases to up to 7 months when you worked for more than 20 years for the company. That you get fired effective immediately usually only happen if you really fucked something up.

[derefr]

"Layoff" and "firing" are separate concepts here. The central example of a true layoff is a trade work shortage: the layoff happens with very little notice, because it reflects the volatile nature of the demand for the trade. If there's suddenly, unexpectedly nothing for anyone to do, then there's suddenly, unexpectedly no benefit in paying anyone to come in for the day to do it.

Does that kind of situation still confer protections in Germany? If so, how do German manufacturing companies manage to not go bankrupt? Do all the companies subscribe to huge insurance pools?

[danbruc]

As far as I know the barriers are even higher for layoffs. You can not, for example, arbitrarily pick which workers to layoff but have to minimize the social impact when you have to choose between several employees doing the same work, for example take age, spousal support, and things like that into consideration. But I am totally not an expert and I am sure it is a vastly more complex topic than I can imagine.

[pc86]

This seems backwards to me. Because my spouse has a better job than Mike's, I'm more likely to get laid off? Because I'm younger than Bill and can theoretically make up the financial impact sooner I'm more likely to get laid off?

If there are ten employees you need to cut, shouldn't they be cut based on either their recent performance, or a completely random method?

[gaius]

If there are ten employees you need to cut, shouldn't they be cut based on either their recent performance

No, because layoffs are position-based. If it's a performance related cull then that's not the same as redundancies. If you want to get rid of people like that then you need ironclad documentation and/or to provide generous packages.

[pas]

In a hard time it tries to do the thing with the less overall impact.

Maybe it's putting lipstick on a pig, maybe it's fairness.

Layoffs (mass dismissal) are very hard, because usually it means the whole region has economic problems, and those that get laid off are especially vulnerable - because they almost by definition work in a sort of dying industry/trade.

[fjsolwmv]

Welcome to the world of progressive taxation. The more secure you are, the more you pay.

[pjc50]

.. but there isn't suddenly, unexpectly, no need for the employees to pay their rent, mortgages and bills.

When I was made redundant a decade ago in the UK I got:

- week's "consultation period" during which the ranking process for who would be made redundant was explained

- pay in lieu of month's notice

- (optional on behalf of the employer) three month's pay for signing away my right to sue for wrongful dismissal

The only situation in which employees can really lose out is if the company goes bankrupt in which case they are at risk of losing their last paycheque.

[Xylakant]

Traditionally, large scale layoffs are hard and avoided, especially in industries where unions are strong. If required they are usually negotiated with the union. Still, there are often ways to avoid a layoff. The union sometimes agrees on a temporary pay cut across the board. There are some legal instruments that help a company in a crisis, Kurzarbeit is one of the most german one: The company can under some circumstances cut work time (and salaries) for a specified group of employees and the state will cover for a certain percentage of the wage loss. This allows the company to retain staff in an unexpected slow in business and be ready and fully staffed when orders start rolling in. In effect a giant insurance pool.

[dragonwriter]

The US has much weaker employee protections. Aside from workers in unions and certain protected scenarios, layoffs usually occur with zero notice. (And, often, when associated with public bad financial returns, shortly after management denies any layoffs are coming.)

[pkaye]

The WARN act is part of US labor law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_Adjustment_and_Retraini...

For larger companies with layoffs beyond a threshold, they employer must give 60 days notice. I think they can instead give 60 days severance.

[dragonwriter]

Yeah, but the threshold is quite large; 500+ workers at a single site, or both 50-499 workers and over a third of the site workforce.

The Stack Overflow layoffs are 60 people and 20% of their workforce, and so wouldn't (even at a single site) be subject to the WARN Act’s 60-day notice requirement.

[pkaye]

True it could be stronger. Some states like California have more stringent versions.

[pc86]

These layoffs weren't in Germany, so I'm not sure that German law is relevant.