[hueving]

It would be nice if you could link to some of the key studies in this area. Just because there were a few flawed studies is hardly a reason to take it as actionable information.

Has it even been determined that diversity leads to productivity or is it just that diversity is a result of the same thing the productivity is?

[richmarr]

> Just because there were a few flawed studies is hardly a reason to take it as actionable information.

It's interesting that you (someone apparently unaware of the work in this area) is reducing my "a fair number" as "a few" and tainting them as "flawed" when all I did was to acknowledge "various shortcomings". Were you conscious of trying to minimise the weight of evidence without having actually seen it? I'm not judging you for it, it's normal, I'm just calling it out so that you're aware if you previously weren't.

As for whether or not this is actionable, I'm not aware of anyone acting on the basis of diversity carrying a productivity dividend. As far as I've seen (my company works in this space) it's used as a supporting argument to help justify measures to reduce the effect of unconscious bias (a separate area of study) which carries its own dividend, i.e. better employees.

> Has it even been determined that diversity leads to productivity or is it just that diversity is a result of the same thing the productivity is?

That's right, correlation and causation are not the same.

It's been correlated using real world company data, theorised under social capital models, observed under lab conditions relating to jury decision accuracy, and causally shown at a GDP level using computer models. There may be others. There may be publishing bias. There may be flaws. I've already spent enough time writing this so you can google them yourself. These studies each have various shortcomings, eg. self-reporting, scale, assumptions (in the case of the models) and relate to specific contexts rather than generally... so this is a case of the balance of evidence rather than "proven facts".

[wanderer2323]

Have you noticed how you dodged the request to link the related studies by bringing disproportial attention to the rest of grandparent's post in a condescending manner? I'm not judging you for it, it's normal. Just calling you out.

Also can you link what you consider to be representative studies on the topic?

[richmarr]

You're right, it was a little condescending, I was irritated by the way hueving minimised the evidence without apparently knowing anything about it.

(I'm sorry, hueving, that was immature of me.)

wanderer2323, I used to cite studies but no longer consider it a useful way to discuss topics like this on HN. Too often it descends into methodology theatre and too rarely does it result in useful dialogue.

So, with my apologies, no. I won't link to studies. If you're curious I've shared enough background in other comments for you to get started with your own research.

[sheepmullet]

> Too often it descends into methodology theatre and too rarely does it result in useful dialogue.

That is what happens when you present weak evidence.

I have yet to see any convincing studies despite it being straightforward to test in small repeatable experiments.

It is not hard to get 20 different 5 person teams to perform a complex task for a couple of weeks and see what impacts different types of diversity have.

[richmarr]

[Just to address the other points you raise because I was in a rush last time]

> I have yet to see any convincing studies despite it being straightforward to test in small repeatable experiments.

If these experiments are so "straightforward", and your resistance to these ideas is well-founded, then where are all the experiments demonstrating that there is no such effect?

Alternatively if you believe publishing bias and/or feminist conspiracy are combining to quash all this budding anti-diversity research then why don't you run one yourself and show everyone how it's done?

If you're not up for doing the actual experiment I'm happy to pass your protocol around for some feedback, maybe I could find someone to run the experiment for you. Maybe I can even help with funding.

[sheepmullet]

> Alternatively if you believe publishing bias and/or feminist conspiracy

Why does it have to be a conspiracy?

There are two major groups pushing this research:

1) Companies looking to make a buck by providing "solutions".

2) Social justice types.

Both these groups want there to be serious problems caused by a lack of diversity.

And then you look at the expressed ideologies of the researchers themselves and it is clear they also want the same outcome.

As such what makes the research that comes from these groups any different from research coming out of corporate and political think tanks?

I wouldn't blindly trust the Cato Institute so why would I blindly trust these researchers?

[sheepmullet]

> then where are all the experiments

That is exactly what I am asking you.

Where are all the small scale experiments that show diversity in race/gender in a team lead to better outcomes?

There are a lot of small scale studies on effective teamwork. I went through them a long time ago when I did my business degree.

I don't recall any of them suggesting diversity of race / gender were large contributors.

Business schools have been running small scale studies on effective teamwork for decades.

[richmarr]

> That is what happens when you present weak evidence.

In a perfectly rational world you would be right. That's not where we live though, is it.

[wanderer2323]

>Too often it descends into methodology theatre and too rarely does it result in useful dialogue.

That must be because your studies have glaring methodology defects, like most of the social studies these days. (It's easy to predict the things you'll see: vanishingly small sample sizes, no preregistration, data massaging, etc.)

You however are trying to get other people to update on methodologically bankrupt information and, when asked for proof, are taking the high ground "I won't link to studies, it leads to methodology theater and I'm above that". With my apologies, your opinion that 'diversity leads to improved productivity' is unsubstantiated, likely false and you delude yourself if you think you are right.

[richmarr]

> That must be because your studies have glaring methodology defects...

How delightful it would be to live in such a simple world.

Here's a study for you:

Handley, Browna, Moss-Racusinc, and Smith (2015) found that men are more likely to judge evidence of gender biases as low quality, and that effect is particularly pronounced in STEM fields

[wanderer2323]

must be good to live in such a simple world where you can expect to bring a study about gender biases into a discussion about diversity studies and have it prove or explain anything. anyway, the problems with the study you linked are glaringly obvious -- poorly designed study, exceptionally poorly designed controls, no preregistration (that I can see mentioned at least), sample sizes that make me really want to check their math -- and these are just from the abstract.

If this is what you have in mind when you speak of research, then you can believe whatever you want, really. false -> true === true after all