[condescendence]

The tone of this article seems to particularly demean the students in the beginning; I understand it's supposed to bring them to light but holy shit:

>They all ended up in West Virginia, not exactly the America you dream of when you come from Chennai or Bangalore. Probably not even when you come from Biel.

>Since then, their careers haven't really advanced in any significant way

>he looks less like an emissions specialist and more like a South Asian IT expert

[vikiomega9]

> They all ended up in West Virginia, not exactly the America you dream of when you come from Chennai or Bangalore. Probably not even when you come from Biel.

I find these type of statements pretty racist. I mean what does it have to do with the reporting? I'm not sure it adds to the dramatic narrative/buildup. Having said that, I suppose for most people who move to the US, there is a certain picture in mind of New York and LA among other things, so there's that. But it sounds racist in the back of my head, not to mention the IT part.

[usrusr]

There is nothing strictly racist in those statements, nothing strictly racist as in "humans of ancestry X are inherently inferior to humans of ancestry Y". But as the reaction here clearly shows, the writing touches some trigger patterns: the article seems to say things that in America, only a racist would say. But these triggers are completely cultural and since this is a text from Germany you should be very careful to make assumption based on cultural "don'ts" from a different background. There is nothing in the article that would qualify as racist according to german standards. Many statements that scream "racist" to an American would seem perfectly all right even to a German who hands teddy-bears to refugee children by day and hunts nazi hooligans by night.

As a German, it is one of the most interesting things that I have ever learned from reading hacker news: according to American standards, all of Germany would be considered racist, even Baader/Meinhoff-worshipping leftists. The same insight helps me immensely in accepting that all those things in America that trigger German "this is terribly, terribly nationalist!" sensibilities probably do not actually mean that the USA are gearing up to annex some neighboring countries by force. Because that is what we think of when we see flags over factory floors, hear the "USA! USA!" chant or someone raising from their seat upon hearing their national anthem and maybe even -gasp!- put their right hand higher than the waist line. Here in Germany, only a racist would do that (because nationalism and racism are inseparable in countries that do not share America's long tradition of immigration).

In short: our cultures are full of shortcut heuristics for the kind of dangerous group-chauvinism we want to avoid. It's usually not a problem to have them (I'm not here to rally against "PC crap"), but they absolutely don't translate across borders.

[ballooney]

That’s specifically german though, because of its pretty abyssmal 20th Century, rather than specifically american. That said most modern west europeans do find american nationalism and exceptionalism a bit odd, especially after they’ve visited and US and seen the reality of most people’s situation. If anyone reads this and thinks I’m being unfair, especially on california-centric HN, consider if you’ve ever hosted a western european friend in SF and had them comment about just how abnormal the level of homelessness and mental illness is there. And how they looked at you/us when you said ‘well it’s because SF is a warmer place to sleep on the streets’ as if that was fine.

This article is honestly quite objective, and should invite some introspection if your first instinct is to be offended.

[condescendence]

This is a good point, I had some of my European based friends look this over for their feedback for kicks and giggles. They didn't find this offensive in any way mostly just stating the fact of living situations.

In my comment I tried to specifically point out that it was more demeaning than actual racism with some of the statements which are two very different forms of offense.

You mention the whole "PC" thing which is a good area for discussion on this article. Americans (myself included) have this SJW culture around being politically correct and I think it's leading society more towards inherent racism. My old college friends came from all over the world, and we would always joke about the stereotypes of everyone's background. They'd call me 'Murica and I understood where they were coming from, as did they when we had names for each other. Nowadays it's common that someone would be offended if we joked in the same manner, and we're missing the ability to break the ice between our cultures/ethnicities and be friends without perceiving it as prejudice.

[vikiomega9]

I certainly concede the cutural context, and wouldn't care much if the article we're written in German and I were reading a translation, but I assume this article is written for consumption by an English population, which means barring regional difference in English there shouldn't be much ambiguity in interpretation for that population.

Your anology doesn't quite line up. What you point out are specific actions of people. You are now easily empowered to go ask that person why they stood up to the national anthem or ask someone else. The line quoted here is an impression of a German author of what an other culture percieves. This just doesn't sound like good reporting. Is the author projecting third world impressions or projecting what _anyone_ reaching America would feel about non costal cities? The tone of the rest of the article suggests the latter, but what really stood out was the added impression of someone from Switzerland. Growing up in a culture with with tons of colonial baggage, I don't see why I shouldn't feel offended.

[germanier]

The article was originally published in German in their print magazine about a week before the linked translation. http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/dieselskandal-drei-us-studente... (paywalled)

[Consultant32452]

I felt it was more classist. I personally would enjoy living in West Virginia. Low taxes, cheap land, beautiful wildlife/scenery, access to the Appalachian Trail, etc. I certainly understand why some people would prefer to live in a place like NY, but this idea that if you're not in a wealthy coastal city that life is shit is so tiresome.

[RickJWagner]

Yes, definitely a snobby, elitist tone.

The funny thing is, it's totally hogwash. Brilliant minds exist all around us, in every locale.

[mikestew]

I was told by an actual rocket scientist who lived in Birmingham, Alabama that Birmingham had at the time more PhDs per capita than anywhere else in the U. S. Never looked it up, but it was believable enough at the time.

[icebraining]

How is it classist? People of all classes live in both WV and in SF or NY.

[amelius]

> I felt it was more classist.

It's also "job-ist" (is there a word for that? if not, that's a lexical gap)

Anyway, now I feel dirty being an IT expert.

[mikestew]

I don’t see race even mentioned in the part you quoted. What I do see is something along the lines of “if your impression of the U. S. is from television and popular media, West Virginia might not be what you expect”. Reminds me of a co-worker from decades ago whose family asked him if the U. S. is really just like the TV show Dallas. Umm, not in Indiana it’s not.

[vikiomega9]

The part about Biel makes it sound like the Indians were ignorant thirdworlders who didn't know any better.

[mikestew]

Okay, thanks for the context. I tried the iOS “long press/lookup...” on Biel and got a mediocre actress and a musician.

[matt4077]

The intended meaning is exactly what you mention, namely WV possibly being a disappointment to a foreigner coming to the US. In that sense, it's demeaning to West Virginia, and trying to convey sympathy for the students.

[mirimir]

It manages to be demeaning to the Indians, to West Virginia, and to "hillbillies". But yes, there's lots of rural poverty in Appalachia.

[walshemj]

I think its due partly to the very stratified nature of education in Germany and to be polite a lot of mainland European countries tended not to have much less immigration than say the UK and haven't got to the level of the UK and the USA in recognising the issues around race.

That sot to say that the Uk and USA don't have major issues with BME integration /Racisim

[nether]

Just sounds like it was written by a brusque German dude. They state outright what Americans are all thinking.

[walshemj]

doesn't excuse racism at all

[open-source-ux]

I also felt the opening tone of the article was quite patronising. What exactly is an emissions specialist supposed to look like?

[albertgoeswoof]

It’s straight up racist

[hit8run]

Came here because I wanted to outline the same. I just read the article and it sounds like an angry VW manager wrote it ಠ_ಠ