[mikeash]

It makes sense with those numbers, but those aren’t anything like the real numbers. The real numbers for the US are more like 450 silos and 5 bomber bases. So you’re looking at about 1,350 warheads to take out the silos (assuming three each) and 15 to take out the bombers (again assuming three each).

You could expand the number of bases, but that’s tremendously expensive. It’s far cheaper to build a missile silo than a bomber base and a fleet of bombers to base there.

So in terms of the real numbers, you’re talking about adding around 1-2% to the number of warheads needed for a successful preemptive strike. Again, is that’s all there is to it, or is it something else?

[ChuckMcM]

I think I mentioned they were made up numbers, they were illustrative :-) not definitive. The actual numbers are probably in the treaty documents somewhere.

As for the relative cost of building a missile silo or reactivating a SAC base, I'd be interested in how you get to the notion that building a missile base would be less expensive. They were pretty complex facilities, and there are some great videos on youtube about them. An airbase is a bunch of asphalt spread out, a bunker to hold munitions, and a barracks to hold the pilots. I will be the first person to say I have not built (or even participated in building) either kind of facility but when I imagine how I might build one or the other, the fact that the SAC base is all above ground makes me believe that it would be cheaper to build. Could totally be wrong on that of course.

[mikeash]

I understood that the numbers were made up, but this is a case where they need to be accurate, at least in their proportion, for the result to make sense.

As for relative cost, that’s a big reason why ICBMs took on such a prominent role: once the technology was worked out, they were much cheaper than bombers.

It’s hard to find precise numbers, but imprecise ones should suffice. We can look at commercial airports to get an idea of what base construction would cost. An asphalt runway won’t cut it here: you need sturdy concrete runways to hold large planes like this. I believe a B-52 needs even more strength than airliners do, because they have fewer wheels. In any case, the cost of constructing a single new runway at a large commercial airport is many hundreds of millions of dollars, sometimes over a billion. And that’s just the runway, never mind all the other infrastructure you need. Bombers aren’t cheap either. It’s hard to say what a new B-52 would cost, since nobody has built one for a long time, but it’s peobably hundreds of millions each.

An ICBM plus silo is tens of millions. Various sources online list the Minutemen III at a $7 million cost per unit, but that must be nominal dollars decades back. They’d cost quite a bit more now, but tens of millions should be a reasonable estimate. The silo adds significant cost, but it’s ultimately a fairly small construction projects relative to a whole bomber base.

If you can reactivate old bases, that would help a lot, but they probably need substantial refurbishment if they’ve been idle for a long time, and you still need aircraft to base there. And there are only so many old bases to be had.

[ChuckMcM]

This has been an interesting conversation but we are clearly talking past each other.

When you say something like : "As for relative cost, that’s a big reason why ICBMs took on such a prominent role: once the technology was worked out, they were much cheaper than bombers." I realize you continue to discuss this as an engineer might, how many lines of code to make a compiler versus an interpreter for example. Your statement is both correct and completely irrelevant in the context of the world we live in with its current treaties.

We are forbidden, by treaty, from making any additional ICBMs, no matter what they cost. As a nation we abide that treaty because we believe that doing so is in the best interests of the existence of the world.

In doesn't seem particularly useful to discuss an alternate world unconstrained by such treaties as the general consensus has been to date that such a world is short lived.

[mikeash]

I discussed the current state of things as well as hypotheticals, so I don't think we're talking past each other. I am having a damned difficult time getting a straight answer out of you, though. You keep saying that putting bombers on alert is helpful because it makes a preemptive strike more difficult, but have yet to explain how it would do so in any substantial way. When I asked, twice, if it was just a matter of requiring the enemy to use 1-2% more warheads or if it was something else, you didn't answer....

"I[t] doesn't seem particularly useful to discuss an alternate world unconstrained by such treaties...." You literally did just that only a few messages ago! "If New START is not renewed, and we see a build up in nuclear arms again...."

I don't get how bombers are useful either the way things are now or in a post-treaty era. As things stand now, you're only adding maybe a half-dozen targets to a preemptive strike target list which is already 400+ entries long. That doesn't seem significant. In a post-treaty world, it's far cheaper to lengthen the target list by building more ICBMs and silos than by building more bombers and bomber bases. (And we're currently about 200 launchers below our limits under New START, so we could build quite a few more. And bombers and ICBMs are lumped together under the same limit, so you can't use bombers as a way to get around a ceiling on ICBMs.)

I'm open to learning how alert bombers help. And if it's just a matter of using existing resources to expand the enemy's target list by 1-2%, that's fair enough. But so far you just keep telling me that it somehow makes a first strike much harder and that I should do more research.