[TuringNYC]

Totally agree, but as another commenter suggested it is difficult to measure socioeconomic status. I think the bigger issue is -- why are negative points applied to Asian applications on my affirmative action schemes, rather than negative points evenly distributed against the entire non-preferred pool? Is anyone seriously arguing that Asian applicants have it easier than caucasians?

Having grown up quite poor in NYC, I was always dismayed by not being able to take advantage of affirmative action programs...but getting selective negative points is just plain unfair.

[indubitable]

Organizations are somewhat damned if they do and damned if they don't with affirmative action. In particular the onus of proving that an e.g. university is not being discriminatory rests on them. But diversity quotas such as at least 10% of all accepted applicants will be green, 15% blue, etc are illegal. It puts organizations in a situation where they cannot have diversity quotas, but my run into issues if their results do not look like diversity quotas. This same issue is faced by larger corporations as well.

Consequently, you end up with affirmative action that is based on equality of result instead of equality of opportunity. There are a large number of extremely well qualified Asian applicants so in order to constrain the amount accepted (keeping in mind that acceptance is a zero sum game) they are substantially penalized. I think there's a more fundamental problem with this beyond just fairness.

The whole point of affirmative action was to combat widespread overt racism and other discrimination in hiring/acceptance. Equality of opportunity is extremely important. In times past it's entirely possible the talent in individuals like Neil deGrasse Tyson would not have been allowed to be cultivated because of the color of their skin, and that would be a great tragedy. The problem is that systems that end up de facto equality of result face the exact same problem as we did when overt racism and discrimination was so widespread. You end up viewing certain people as less meritorious than they are, because of the color of their skin. This is something that should never be tolerated, no matter how benevolent the reason may be.

[vilmosi]

>>> Is anyone seriously arguing that Asian applicants have it easier than caucasians?

Statistically speaking, don't they? Isn't that the reasoning for these "penalties"?

[TuringNYC]

I imagine this is a huge can of worms, there is no one answer, and any answer I give will be a broad and imperfect generalization. That said, i'll provide my viewpoint as an Asian-American born and raised in NYC. I'm comparing to others in NYC (obviously there is the broader USA where poverty abounds and knows no color.)

No, most asians of my generation did not have it easier. We rarely had an uncle at a hedge fund or lawfirm suddenly drop an internship in the middle of Junior year high school to beef up our college applications. Few had legacy connections or friends at the investment bank who could write a great recommendation. I went to a top-3 science high school in NYC and by and large, the Asians I saw succeed did it through sheer, soul-crushing hard work. In many cases we had slave masters (our mothers usually, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_mother) ensuring success at any cost.

Sure, most of my friends and I got into ivy league schools in droves, but in many cases it was almost a pyrrhic victory. I honestly wish I could have normal fun and social development in high school. Instead I was forced to maximize one and only one objective function -- getting into an Ivy League school.

So to answer your question: No, we Asian-Americans dont have it easier, most of us simply overcompensated at great personal cost.

These are all gross generalizations circa 1994-1997 based on my highly diverse high school graduating class of ~800 and another thousand people I know from my neighborhood, civic organizations, summer jobs, etc. I'd value other perspectives.

[vilmosi]

>>> No, most asians of my generation did not have it easier

Again, statistically. On average, people of all colors don't have an uncle at a hedge fund...

>>> So to answer your question: No, we Asian-Americans dont have it easier, most of us simply overcompensated at great personal cost.

In NY... The irony...

And that's if you're anecdotes are true.

[TuringNYC]

>> Again, statistically. On average, people of all colors don't have an uncle at a hedge fund...

Huge numbers of people I went to undergrad with had uncles at hedge funds or big law firms. Those are the people I was competing with for entrance. You're absolutely right, I was never competing with many people in the Midwest (of all races) who had it worse than me because large populations amongst the Ivy League schools come from ~2 dozen high schools. My high school was proud to produce 71 (i think, something around that) students who proceeded into Ivy League schools from our graduating class (for whatever that is worth.) It is even more with 5 other NYC schools and a couple on Massachusetts.

Finally, You dont need to believe my anecdotes -- you can read hundreds of first-hand accounts online. When the "Tiger Mom" NY Times article and book came out, you chould see the outpouring of condemnation of some of this NY (and broader) Asian subculture -- a lot of it was from Asians like myself.

I encourage you to read the comments section of that famous article as well as the dozens of offshoot conversations and heated debate that ensued over the persoanl/emotional/psychological cost of success at any cost mentality.

[vilmosi]

>>> Huge numbers of people I went to undergrad with had uncles at hedge funds or big law firms.

Yes, in a top school in NY.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not for "penalising" or "rewarding" anyone for their skin color. I hope you didn't get that message from me.

I am way more into personalised life experience reward/penalty system. And that should be limited to scholarships based on socio economic situation, not test scores.

[TuringNYC]

>> Yes, in a top school in NY.

Well that is sort of my point...When Asians compete for spots at top universities, they arent really competing against the entire united states, they are competing against the applicant pool.

Ivy League schools get more valedictorian applications than there are seats. Some get more perfect SAT scores than there are seats, so they end up using other factors like sports, well-rounded-ness, speaking ability, unique experiences, etc.

A lot of the folks in that applicant pool have all sorts of unique experiences -- summar safaris in africa, a performance at Lincoln Center, summer internship at a major law firm, internship at some Congressperson's office, etc, etc.

Those types of non-academic admissions factors disfavor most minorities (they espcially disfavor those of African descent given the lack of diversity in most of those fields, which is why i can appreciate affirmative action for clearly underpriviledged groups.)

Now, things are getting better for Asians, Indians, etc and are certainly better than what they were in 1996 when I applied to college. People always tend to point at Nadella, Pandit, Pichai -- but seriously -- how much of the real power base in the US is actually diverse?

Looking beyond technology into the broader economic, cultural, media, and political base of the US, can anyone really argue that Asians are so well represented that they deserve Negative application points relative to all others?