[cletus]

Not sure why you're being downvoted (+1 from me) but this is essentially the basis of the Netflix documentary 13th [1]. The thesis is that slavery was replaced by excessive incarceration of African Americans, which were then used as cheap or free labour... much like slaves were.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film)

[macrael]

And before that it was the thesis of the book The New Jim Crow. Arguing that the modern incarceration system came into being as a system of control to replace the Jim Crow laws that arose as a system of control to replace slavery.

The most 'aha' connection there was that a shocking percentage of black men have felony convictions of some sort or another, and we deny felons the right to vote in most states. Jim Crow indeed.

[KGIII]

> we deny felons the right to vote in most states.

Only while incarcerated.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/felon-v...

[macrael]

I'm curious what "automatic restoration" means. I recall from The New Jim Crow that the process is onerous in many states, involving paperwork and bureaucracy that many don't end up taking the time to do. But maybe that's just in the nine non-automatic states.

Ah, and in the paragraph underneath that table:

Even in states where ex-offenders automatically regain the right to vote upon completion of their sentence, the process of re-registering to vote often is difficult. One reason is the complexity of the laws and processes surrounding disenfranchisement. In some cases, it is difficult to determine whose rights can be restored. This can vary in some states according to the date of the crime, the conviction, or the release from prison, or the nature of the crime. The complex restoration process also can be daunting. It often involves lengthy paperwork, burdensome documentation, and the involvement and coordination of several state agencies

This, again, is why Jim Crow is an apt comparison. It's a web of rules that all together add up to a system of control.

[Clubber]

Depends on the state. I'm on one of the states in the "Restoration by Governor's Action or Court Action" category, and I can tell you thought it is possible, voting rates are rarely, if ever reinstated in my state.

[KGIII]

Oh, I'm familiar with that. It's just that most don't take away the right to vote permanently. They take it away until you're done serving your sentence and then it is automatically restored. (See the link.)

A couple of States even allow inmates to vote while incarcerated. In my now-home State, inmates are encouraged to vote and sometimes politicians will even go campaign inside the prison. That's pretty rare, but has happened.

So, it's a temporary loss in most cases. Notably, Maine allows inmates to vote and Maine is overwhelmingly white. Vermont is the same way. In my quest for more information, I found some commentary about that aspect.

[dragonwriter]

> Notably, Maine allows inmates to vote and Maine is overwhelmingly white. Vermont is the same way.

Being overwhelmingly white is probably part of the reason; if you don't have a visible black underclass to subjugate, you don't take steps to subjugate them. In discussing the thesis of felon disenfranchisement as part of “the New Jim Crow”, pointing out that states without a notable visible black population don't engage in disenfranchisement is in line with that thesis.

[aaron-lebo]

There's some truth to it but the original post is way too simplistic.

They are suggesting that prison, even today, is equivalent to slavery. There is injustice within the modern prison system, but prison is not slavery, at least in the right context it is a place for punishment and rehabilitation.

Sure prisons make a profit off their prisoners, but those profits are nothing like those obtained by slavery, it's an extreme exaggeration and the problem with the justice system isn't just race, if someone wants to suggest that.

removal of slavery as a punishment

What is actually being proposed here?

To say we "never quit doing slavery" is to ignore the massive improvements and lives dedicated to get rid of actual, you know, slavery.

[mikeash]

The Constitution explicitly permits slavery for criminals, and many prisons take advantage of this. How is that simplistic?

[aaron-lebo]

It is simplistic exactly because that is not equivalent to slavery circa 1860 which is what is suggested through "we never quit doing slavery".

[mikeash]

Slavery has changed but it hasn't ended. The post discusses the changes, so again, what's simplistic?

[swasheck]

So the post is missing nuance in favor of a "big picture" opinion. I still view it as a thoughtful take on the situation. Then again, I generally only downvote trolls and distractions, not thoughtful posts with which I disagree.

[dominotw]

> which were then used as cheap or free labour... much like slaves were.

Are prisons really profitable though? Do they produce anything of real value from this free labor ?

[gumby]

Prisons are hugely profitable (see the video elsewhere of the Louisiana sheriff) and the prison industrial complex throws off so much cash that its lobbying effort is one of the largest in California (and is why we still have, for example, the three strikes law)

[dominotw]

sorry I was referring to GP's comment about cheap labor, not the profitability of prison itself.

Are private companies generating significant profit off of cheap prison labor ? Am I buying something from a walmart shelve made from prison labor ?

[gumby]

> Am I buying something from a walmart shelve made from prison labor ?

Yep.

A quick google search with that very question finds lots of entries, many of course with an axe to grind. The Economist is rather dispassionate on the subject though: https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21718897-idaho-...

But if you interact with the government, go to McDonalds, etc you're using prison labor. Whole Foods too (http://theweek.com/articles/630907/corporate-america-secret-...)

I said "yep" because I figured you were asking a general question; in the specific case Walmart's position is that they don't use prison labor (but plenty of web sites will tell you it's not true. Here's Huffpo: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/al-norman/walmart-prison-labo...).

This link is pretty good but requires a bit more epistemological digging: https://www.cagedbirdmagazine.com/single-post/2017/03/28/50-...

[dominotw]

oh wow. I had no idea. Thank you for the information.

[drspacemonkey]

At WalMart, yes. Also JC Penny, Victoria's Secret, K-Mart, and Starbucks have all used prison labor. There's also prison call centers, such as those used by American Airlines and Avis.

[TheAdamAndChe]

It's being downvoted because it's pushing a false narrative that it's only black people that are being incarcerated, and they're being incarcerated explicitly for cheap labor. There are major issues with regards to race in America, but real life is more nuanced than "it's happening because racism."

[cavanasm]

Would "racism is a statistically significant contributing factor" be more palatable for you than "it's happening because racism"?

[TheAdamAndChe]

Yes, actually. A nuanced discussion on a nuanced issue is much preferable to ideological squabbles.

[chimeracoder]

> It's being downvoted because it's pushing a false narrative that it's only black people that are being incarcerated,

Nobody is saying "only" black people are being incarcerated. They're saying that incarceration is used as a tool to perpetuate many of the same outcomes as slavery. Which is trivially verifiable, if you look at the respective incarceration rates by race.

> they're being incarcerated explicitly for cheap labor

Virtually all prisoners are required to work for what amounts to as little as $.10/hour. $1/hour is considered an incredibly good wage for a prison job. Prisoners are, by design, excluded from minimum wage laws. This is not limited to private prisons; it includes inmates at state-run and federal prisons too.

In California, about a third of the people fighting the recent and ongoing wildfires are prisoners, generally making about $1/hour or less. The maximum they can make is $2.56. Again, this burden largely falls on black and other non-white people, because they're incarcerated at much higher rates and for much longer sentences for the same crimes.

[TheAdamAndChe]

> Which is trivially verifiable, if you look at the respective incarceration rates by race.

This assumes that incarceration rates should be equal for all races, which probably shouldn't be the case. There's a correlation between low socioeconomic status and incarceration. Black Americans tend to have a lower socioeconomic status. Murder rates are also much higher among blacks than other races in America.

> Prisoners are, by design, excluded from minimum wage laws.

Right. Prisoners are being exploited, but that's not why they're being imprisoned. They're being imprisoned because of drugs, violence, and thievery/burglary for the most part.

[BearGoesChirp]

>if you look at the respective incarceration rates by race.

Yet the theory breaks down once you look at a breakdown of race, gender, and SES.

[chimeracoder]

> Yet the theory breaks down once you look at a breakdown of race, gender, and SES.

There's plenty of research debunking this claim, which is a myth generally propagated by groups with explicit white supremacist agendas.

[occultist_throw]

Waitsec. So, because I didn't write a dissertation on this topic, nor did I write a longform article, it's invalid? Hardly.

It's not hard to look up that google maps census dot map. And then go find prisons in Google Maps and find it on the census map. Might be pretty surprising what you see... then again, might not.

Hint: https://demographics.virginia.edu/DotMap/ Turn overlays. Go to Indianapolis, then look to the West side towards Avon and Danville. There's a dense green block (green dots = Black people) due south of Avon. Now, go look in Google Maps as to what's there.

Wash, rinse and repeat all across the US. You want evidence? There's pretty telling evidence right there.

Hell, I would go over the comment limit on even an abstract on this topic. We're talking 300+ years of history just in the US and colonies.

No, the real reason here why I'm being downvoted is because of a popularity contest. It certainly doesn't have to do with content, at least here. But some people are considered "unpopular". So we see rapid point swings and -1's. To me, its just some of the backward-ness how this community works. Every community has something like this. Grain/block of salt, and all.

[dEnigma]

Insulting the community won't help against the downvotes. The healthy path is to just ignore the votes and freely discuss your opinions, whether they resonate with other people or not.

By that I don't mean "ignore other people", only their effect on your comment score/karma. You should listen to their arguments nonetheless.

[occultist_throw]

> Insulting the community won't help against the downvotes. The healthy path is to just ignore the votes and freely discuss your opinions, whether they resonate with other people or not.

That's the problem with "Downvotes" in the way they're done here. Legitimate discourse, albeit unpopular will attract downvotes. And so will unrelated offtopic garbage (Spam, 1 word replies, crazy rantings ala TempleOS).

The end result to both "unpopular" material and "spam" is the same - hidden. Simply put, -1s = losing right to talk and be seen. So yeah, I am pretty disappointed in the community, and I have a justifiable right to be.

[grzm]

I think there's space on HN for what one might consider unpopular views when they're presented in a more diplomatic way. Starting off with a chip on one's shoulder ("I've always taken an unpopular view about slavery") isn't a great way to start out. If you're looking for productive discussion, I can think of better ways to go about it. If you think something you want to share might be unpopular, why not take some effort to couch it in terms you think might have a better chance of being listened to?

The HN community is what it is. It has certain norms and behaviors. By participating, you're part of it. If it doesn't operate in a way you prefer and you'd like to continue to contribute, be the change you want. Behave in the ways you want. I encourage you to do so! That said, if you want to be confrontational and argumentative rather than looking for points of agreement and teasing out more nuanced differences, I think you're likely to continue to see pushback on HN. In some sense, such behavior can be as corrosive as spam.

[dEnigma]

I agree; there definitely should be a discussion about the whole system. Personally I would favour a system with a report option for comments that violate community guidelines or even laws, and a comment score that doesn't affect the visibility of your comment (at least not in an absolute hidden/visible way)