[laGrenouille]

While these are valid issues, there are big differences between the concerns of Masters and PhD students in the US that I think you conflating together.

Doctoral students at major research universities rarely pay tuition, particularly at a place as highly ranked as UChicago, and usually are given a large enough stipend to live off of (1). Relative to the amount of work, however, the pay is low and the number of faculty jobs on the other end of this is shrinking. Masters students on the other hand typically do not engage in their own independent research nor do they teach their own classes. They are basically treated like undergraduates with a harder course load. The tuitions for Masters degrees (for which few scholarships are available), on the other hand, are outrageously high.

(1) [https://grad.uchicago.edu/admissions/funding/doctoral](https...

[llccbb]

In many of the physical sciences both Masters and PhD students are usually paid a living wage, do not pay tuition, and work double or triple duty as student, teacher, researcher. These students usually do not accrue additional debt beyond what was needed for their undergraduate degree (if any). Despite their importance to many parts of the university system such as instruction, research, and funding (NSF proposals that don't have explicit funding for grad students are D.O.A.), they can still be treated pretty unfairly. Given the hours they work, it is still most common for them to be on the books as part-time employees (0.49 full-time) which cuts off access to employee sponsored health care that is mandated under the ACA. In almost all cases they have no benefits outside of tuition payment.

I think grad students unionizing is a fantastic idea. They are in every way the critical grease that keeps the capitalistic university system running. They should be able to protect themselves and have a stronger impact in how the universities are run.

The only concern I have is the huge turnover. Unions are most effective and most rationale when the members are committed for life. The longest any of these students could be there is 15 years (5 masters, 10 PhD). This would be very extreme. Most are looking to be out in 2-6 years.

Are there any other examples of unions for occupations that have mandatory turnover or term limits?

[kevindong]

> Given the hours they work, it is still most common for them to be on the books as part-time employees (0.49 full-time) which cuts off access to employee sponsored health care that is mandated under the ACA. In almost all cases they have no benefits outside of tuition payment.

As far as I'm aware, all reputable American colleges will do the following for graduate students who are teaching assistants: 1) waive tuition 2) pay for the majority of a health insurance plan 3) issue a modest living stipend that's enough to live on, albeit not very comfortably. I know this is the case for Purdue.

[spaceseaman]

These are precisely the kinds of things that unions will fight for though.

Just assuming that the university (out of its goodwill?) will do any of those things is kind of ludicrous. At my university, we had to fight tooth and nail (we had a union) to get the university to improve our health insurance and full waive our tuition (They did a tricky thing where they would waive all people with 50% TA-ships, and then they gave everyone a 49% one. Universities are not noble, altruistic actors. Far far from it)

[mathattack]

These things come at a cost. If the cost of grad students goes up, we'll see some combination of the following:

1 - Less grad students.

2 - More undergrads doing the work of grad students.

3 - More adjuncts doing the work of grad students.

4 - Grad students being asked to do more.

The irony is this is happening at the great home of Price Theory!

[Ar-Curunir]

The cost could be offset by administrators not taking a huge cut. Quite literally these administrators do nothing of worth; it's the work of grad students and not-yet-tenured professors that keeps universities rhnning., Not the endless circles of bureaucrats

[dahdum]

Won't unionizing ultimately increase that bureaucracy with union reps, compliance officers, and frequent renegotiations?

[ntsplnkv2]

Will we?

Grad students are major drivers of funding and research for universities. Cutting them will reduce that funding further and make them look worse nationally as an institution.

Perhaps undergraduates SHOULD be welcome to do more of the work? I see no problem with offering cheap workstudies to help grad students and professors getting the little things done while they research and learn.

Adjunct professors might be a good thing-many tenured professors disdain teaching and it shows.

Grad students won't be asked to do more than they agree to because they have a union.

[tomjen3]

Grad students are already the cheapest, and universities are flushed with cash and can't outsource so while they may cut a bit on the numbers mostly they will have to suck it up.

[munin]

Many won't pay for health insurance, or if they do, it is the health insurance that only gets you access to the student health center, which is basically just a dispenser of tylenol and condoms. Most will waive "tuition" but won't waive "fees" which can still be substantial (10% of your take home pay, in my case). This was at a top-10-for-CS grad program.

[gehwartzen]

That was the case at VCU and every other state school I looked at in VA. Only for Science/Engineering though. All other subjects had very few if any TA/RA positions and a ton of people competing to get them.

About 10 years ago the stipends were around 25-35k/year. Plenty to live off of in Richmond or Charlottesville.

[djsumdog]

My masters program offered really affordable health care to students (both undergrad and grad). That was around 2005 though. Not sure if that's still the case.

[TJSomething]

My experience in my CS MS was that there was ~50% discount on tuition, a subsidized health insurance plan, and not quite enough to live on.

[secabeen]

MS is often a different deal that PhD or MS/PhD.

[Fomite]

Indeed, in my field, terminal Masters students are a profit center.

[azinman2]

Top tier usesally doesn’t have terminal MS. MS means you didn’t cut it or you want out. In either case they pay you.

[luckydude]

I think that's not completely accurate. In physics and math and probably other hard science disciplines, yeah, you are correct, a masters means "thanks but you're not gonna make it to a PhD".

I have a masters in Computer Science from UW-Madison and I had nothing to do with the PhD track. I just wanted more learning and the CS department was happy to provide it. There was no stigma associated with a masters degree there and it's definitely helped me in my career.

[Spooky23]

Unions work out pretty well in retail and hotel trades where there is a mix of high turnover and longish tenure people.

When I worked retail in high school and college, one of my employers was a union shop. It was nice in that there was less abusive and capricious scheduling behavior. I moved up to a level where I saw store P&L and the economics looked to be about the same — but it was more equitable and predictable for the employees.

[dnautics]

I would have concern in that unions are typically great when labor is fungible. If there's a wide spread in individual productive value, unions are not so great. Unionizing is basically capitulation to the ethic that grad student labor is a commodity, which it may already be, but is certainly not the aspiration. If I were a grad student at the uofc I would almost certainly be a strike breaker. Your experiment waits for no one.

[Symbiote]

There are highly skilled professional unions in Europe, such as for doctors, pilots or engineers.

Before striking, there's working to rule. The experiment can continue, but the extra hours spent grading papers or doing additional tutorials are not worked.

[CPLX]

Your premise is dubious.

The entertainment industry unions are among the most longstanding and effective and there are no greater spreads in economic value than there are between a novice actor or screenwriter and a global movie star.

[dnautics]

I think you've made my point for me: the unions in acting basically serve to cement and magnify inequality in the system.

[dredmorbius]

Extending the scope of the union to post-docs and adjuncts may help. You're now talking a decade or so in many fields.

[foobarian]

I feel like Masters degrees have become a way for immigrants to get a foot in the door by buying some time to get a H1 job. Citizens in master's programs that I've seen usually just end up there by tacking on a bit of extra time to their undergrad tenure.

[spamizbad]

UChicago is notoriously stingy stipend-wise for top-tier school. A good friend ultimately went to Yale because their stipend nearly double.... also they were Yale.

[santaclaus]

> also they were Yale

Depends what you are studying. Their CS department is notoriously shoddy (I know the Yale undergrads were up in arms about this a few years back).

[kchoudhu]

It's also undergrad, so the quality of the department doesn't actually matter. You also get to put Yale on your resume.

[luckydude]

Masters from UW-Madison here. Got it in 1987. Back then, I did pay tuition but it was super cheap, like $2400/year. The TA pay (I taught the intro to programming class) was about $16K/year for 2 semesters of teaching. It was just enough to live on.

I've got a kid going into math who wants a PhD. I'd love to see what that looks like for him at various good universities (maybe it's lower in the comments).