[webwright]

A bit long-winded.

I think the wisdom here is to not throw the baby out with the bathwater-- because most biz types are useless doesn't mean they all are. Every business is different and has different needs- some can benefit from a biz guy right out of the gates.

That being said, I'm pretty convinced that MOST web startups need an MBA sitting around like they need a hole in the head. The first test of a startup is whether they can builds something anyone wants. It's a lot of work, and most fail.

Domain knowledge and business wisdom is valuable here, but you can get that by talking to customers/users. There is 10 hours a day of BUILDING to do, and there sure as heck isn't that much business wisdom to dispense.

There are plenty of exceptions to this rule-- if you have a business offering, for example, you need someone who has an appetite for selling stuff.

But at the end of the day, you (as a biz guy) need to be able to answer the question: "What are you going to do for 10 hours a day while I build a product?". And you need to be able to answer it in such a way that makes me say, "Wow-- that's way more important than having someone who can code, design, and write effectively."

[ssharp]

I think a lot of people fail to understand what an MBA is and who MBA's were in their "former" lives. I don't have any statistics in front of me, but from what I remember looking over, a higher percentage of engineers/technical degree undergrads go for MBA's compared with Business undergrads. So a lot of these "beef-headed" MBAs that people seem to LOVE to stereotype as useless on here, were probably in a position much like yours at point in their lives. I just don't understand the blatant inferiority complex that exists in the tech community with people who do productive things other than code.

[chendy]

This is an excellent point. As I said in the article, I'm a business guy myself. I was in the business school of my college in fact- and the undergrad program was basically the MBA program in twice as much time. So basically, I've done all of the work, in twice the time, with none of the networking of a true MBA program. haha.

However, the point was really to bring up the fact that experts in any field are going to be useful. EP's rant was primarily that he felt that a mediocre business guy has no place amongst elite hackers in a software startup, and I would mostly agree with that. I would also say that a mediocre code monkey has no place in a startup either.

But if you can identify some true talent- regardless of their specific discipline, you could have a great addition to the team. Would anyone NOT give the next Seth Godin something to do in your startup if you had the chance?

P.s. Another crack at business schools- at least at our undergraduate program, this is also what all of the kids on sports scholarships were enrolled...

Good times.

[webwright]

Totally agree-- that's why I said:

"I think the wisdom here is to not throw the baby out with the bathwater-- because most biz types are useless doesn't mean they all are."

But again-- the question is... What productive stuff is there to do in the first 3-4 months of MOST web startups besides code/design/write? And if you can't build something, what are you going to do to earn your equity? If the value you add is down the road a ways, what are you risking while the builders work for free for 50-60 hours a week for no pay?

[jlombardi]

Just a little nitpicking, but I'd say one of the top problems facing startups is letting the "super l33t hackers" do the design portion.

Very few start ups bring any significant skill to that end and have atrocious workflows/UIs. You can have the most elegant code in the world that can scale magically to no end but turn off everyone who looks at it.

And that's ignoring the bigger picture - there's a large difference between what one amazing coder thinks would be awesome and what any market is actually interested in. Don't get me wrong, it's very likely the same that can happen to a business superstar too, but if nothing else it's crucial to have people from different perspectives involved in a project. You work to avoid tunnel vision that can completely lead you down the wrong path and waste those months of 50-60 hour weeks.

Also I would be willing to put forward that if you're not doing 50-60 hours worth of non-coding work for a startup, you're probably doing it wrong.

[ssharp]

I don't know because every business is different. I'm sure if you're programming all day long you don't want to deal with lawyers, investors, vendors, etc as well. Also, you likely CAN'T deal with them as effectively as someone who might have experience in doing so and WANTS to do so.

Besides that, you don't need to be a programmer to help flesh out a design. You don't need to be a hacker to help grow, shape or evolve an idea. With an end-product in site, there is plenty of work to be done away from TextMate or BBEdit!

[webwright]

IMO, if you are talking with lawyers, investors or vendors for any significant period of time during the first 3 months of a startup, you're doing something very wrong. Though, as you say-- all businesses are different.

I do agree that design is important (I'm a designer myself-- tho if I couldn't code a bit, too, I wouldn't have enough work to do).

[hooande]

On one hand, I have to agree with webwright. The key question here is "What are you going to do for 10 hours a day while I build a product?". But if the "business guy" is truly good, you won't even have to ask that question.

Quick anecdote from "Founders at Work": Wozniac did ALL of the technical things for Apple in the early days. People have implied that Jobs took advantage of him, but in the book Woz says something to the effect of "Anything technical, I did. Anything business related, Steve did. And anything that either of us didn't know how to do, Steve just found a way to take care of it. He really wanted to have a company".

If the "business guy" can fill that role, or at least work with that much passion, then it doesn't matter if he never contributes a bit of code.

Personally: I would love to have an MBA with 5+ years of corporate experience on our team right now. B2B corporate people have a whole way of doing things and I know enough to know that I don't know anything about it.

[webwright]

Good example with Apple. But Apple was also a hardware company-- there are a few more biz things to take care of when you're a computer manufacturing startup.

FWIW, I'm speaking from experience. I'M THAT GUY-- if there is a non-technical thing to do at my startup, I do it. And if I didn't have the chops to do design, copywriting, and some light coding, I really wouldn't have 10 hours of early-stage work to do. Not that a biz guy couldn't keep himself busy-- I just think it'd be with non-critical work in the early days.

Doubtless someone will say that a good biz guy would find critical work to fill up that 10 hours per day with, but I've yet to hear someone tell me what they'd fill it with.

Am I missing something? Pick the 20 best YC startups. Rewind to day 1. Add a business guy. What would he do? I can think of a very few startups where a biz guy would be handy (like SnapTalent), but...