[danielam]

I think your moral sentiments are misplaced. While it would be nice if people didn't litter, training animals to do something beneficial for us is not immoral as such, and especially not if no cruelty is involved. It certainly isn't slavery as slavery presumes rights, something animals do not have. To have an argument, you'd have to show that any negative effects of training surpass the positive. Even if it led to a decline in crow numbers for whatever reason, this isn't necessarily worse. The net positive could outweigh the net negative. For instance, crows are classified as a pest species in some areas and so a reduction in their numbers could be welcomed as a positive result.

What is worth focusing on in this domain is the unprecedented cruelty inflicted on animals in our times where, e.g., cosmetics, fashion and agriculture are concerned.

[KGIII]

I think we have pretty clearly established that some animals have right. We may have established that most animals have rights, I'm not sure.

Try setting fire to a horse and see the legal results. Try making a species go extinct, even pests. So, there are some rights - and arguments for even stronger rights.

[danielam]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that it is clearly established. It most certainly is not. It sounds to me like you are confusing rights with moral obligations in respect to animals. It is a mistake to think that an absence of rights is an absence of moral duties, not to, but in respect to animals.

[KGIII]

Those obligations we have are their rights. Really, go set fire to a horse and see what the courts do to you. The courts punish you because the animal had a right to not suffer and you'd have violated them.

I hunt and fish, so I'm not a granola munching hippy. Yet, animals still have rights. I can hunt and kill a deer. I can't hunt and kill a deer by intentionally causing excessive pain. There are laws against that. Those laws are the animal's rights.

[danielam]

You've confused legal rights with natural rights. Animals don't have natural rights and (generally) don't have legal rights. They're usually legally regarded as property. Anti-cruelty statutes do not presuppose or imply rights. The absence of animal rights does not mean cruelty suddenly ceases to exist.

I didn't say we have obligations (or really duties) _to_ animals but _in respect to_ animals. This is an important distinction.

Animals do not have a right not to suffer, but it is immoral to be cruel toward them. I can, legitimately, cause suffering in an animal if it is an unfortunate effect of, say, acting for an appropriately commensurate human good. I cannot morally do the same to a human being.