[alexanderstears]

how is it billed?

Go ask the people who get jobs as billers - most hosptials have more billers than beds, they can sort it out.

Before you go to surgery agree on the price of everything and ask for a video so you can verify the work was done as billed and there wasn't any padding. In an emergency situation, you're entitled to the price they advertise. IF you can't afford it, the government picks up the bill and maybe you pay for it, maybe you don't. If you want insurance, you can buy insurance but let the insurers use every actuarially relevant bit of information so the insurance works as insurance

[Frondo]

That is ridiculous on so many levels.

Several years ago, I had my gallbladder out in an emergency surgery. I was in intense, intense pain. My friends worried I was having a heart attack. They drove me to the hospital, because I could barely stand, let alone drive. Such intense pain I was barely conscious.

In the ER, I remember they did an ultrasound to determine it was my gallbladder, and then pumped me so full of morphine I was fully incoherent. Still in agonizing pain.

Then, a few hours later, they cut me open and pulled it out. It was starting to go necrotic. They said, had I waited a week, I simply would have died of blood poisoning.

At no point was I in any condition to agree to a price on anything--incoherent from pain, and the morphine. I was in no position to shop around. My friends didn't even know what was wrong with me, they just drove me to the ER because we all thought I was dying.

Even if I had been able to agree to anything--which I couldn't, due to pain--having a video recording of the surgery would have done absolutely nothing for me.

Oh, and while I was in the ER, I did see a couple of gunshot victims--fully unconscious--wheeled through from ambulances. What are they agreeing to??

Man, I don't think you've ever really experienced the health system, and I don't think you've thought about your plan.

(Sadly, I also don't think people's real experiences are going to change your mind, either, but it'd be great if you did think about how nonsensical that fix you're proposing is.)

[alexanderstears]

here's the rub - people who don't wait for catastrophe will shop around on price and healthcare providers will have to publish competitive prices for that business.

You get to pay the advertised price which is going to be much lower than the myster price today.

Regarding gun shots - I think people with gang tattoos shouldn't get healthcare for bullet / stab wounds. Let gang bangers quash their own beefs.

[Frondo]

Neither you nor I know who was shot or why. I didn't mention "gang bangers" and it's offensive and stupid of you to bring that up.

And you obviously haven't thought one bit about the very common situation where someone without health problems is suddenly struck by them, and in a way that makes them unable to price-negotiate.

You're ignoring the reality of the health care world, and hey, fine, it's a free country, but it doesn't make you look like a reasonable or thoughtful person. It makes you look like someone with a blind faith in an ideology.

[alexanderstears]

If a person with teardrop / neck tattoos shows up with a gunshot wound on a weekend night, I have enough confidence to say "get out of this emergency room or we'll call the police".

The whole point of negotiation under duress is rendered moot when the person under duress gets to pay prices that are presented to people who aren't under duress.

Let me craft an analogy - once upon a time I was going on a road trip and forgot to get my oil changed until the day of the trip. I called up the dealer and asked if they could sneak me in - they could, and I got to pay the same oil change price as someone who scheduled it two weeks in advance. The dealer didn't jack up the price because I needed an oil change immediately and they couldn't because they list their prices and are legally bound to honor them.

I think healthcare should have the same thing - every medical facility should have to publish their prices and they should be bound to honor them.

And in my system, if you can't pay, you're not going to debtor's prison. You get to go on your way and you might see less social security or tax refunds until you've made good on your debt.

[Frondo]

"If a person with teardrop / neck tattoos shows up with a gunshot wound"

Again, you don't know a single thing about the gunshot victims wheeled through the ER the night I was there.

You keep bringing up gang imagery, or trying to say somehow that those gunshot victims I saw deserved it or don't deserve medical care (they're just gang bangers and you want to call the cops??? no, they're fucking gunshot victims, and you don't know shit about them).

That is stupid, offensive, and wrong.

You don't know a thing about them and you've now twice inserted your completely-made-up-out-of-your-own-head "gang bangers" or "teardrop tattoos" shit.

Where the fuck is this gang banger garbage coming from?

[alexanderstears]

I don't know "where the fuck this gang banger garbage" is coming from but there'd be a lot less of it if we stopped giving them get out of jail free cards in the form of emergency healthcare.

You know what's offensive? I pay more than my fair share healthcare expenses and I don't get better access to care than lazy people.

You know what's stupid? Health insurers can't adjust my policy based on my gender, but auto insurers can.

You know what's wrong? The status quo that makes it better to present to an E.R as a lazy jobless poor person than someone who's working poor.

You know the system is bad, why are you defending it? Why don't you go out and tell those gang bangers to put down their guns? They won't, and you're too scared to talk to them because you know deep down that violent poor people in bad parts of town are dangerous and beyond reason.

[candiodari]

And what about patients who can't pay ? Whom, therefore the government can't make pay either ?

Secondly, what about people who become destitute because of a medical procedure and do what they sometimes do in Holland ? (if you're fucked on bills and the state comes after you and you would become homeless, simply rob places until you get convicted for 10 years, and stay in prison for 10 years. Free tv and internet, and nobody garnishes any wages. Outside you wouldn't be able to pay rent).

[alexanderstears]

Then they get healthcare at no cost to them - like they already do.

[not_kurt_godel]

That's not how it works. Have you ever had a major medical procedure? You're out of touch and talking about things you don't really know about.

[alexanderstears]

Yeah. I was able to call around and save some money, imagine if I could shop for it without having to call around.