[creatrixcordis]

When "the bitcoin" starting gaining momentum, i thought that "bitcoin" and the public distributed ledger was an exercise to see if the psychology of people has evolved to reduce the dependence on institutions and find out if inequality is because of these institutions or the 1%. However as we are finding out, the same problems are arising but with new technology. The ones with money to risk are playing the game and the public distributed ledger and bitcoin is yet to show us anything different other than the status quo. Who gives a shit if it's decentralized and "transparent" if the problems that a lot of people touted bitcoin/blockchain would "solve" are just replicated. Kinda like who cares if there are many choices, if you don't have the capital to exercise those choices. I am beginning to think that bitcoin is just another channel to speculate on that promises anonymity but fails badly at it. Maybe it's pre-packaging as an antidote to pre-bitcoin financial structure was empty. I don't see how the average world citizen is able to invest with these prices, therefore aiding mobility. I thought wrong... but sure wish i bought it when it was $20 :)

[CodeCube]

On the last point about investing with "these prices" ... remember bitcoins are divisable into many decimal places. So you can "invest" $20 if that's all you've got, and you get an equitable amount (per current market conditions)

[creatrixcordis]

That is a good point. I feel people who truly only have $20 to invest might invest in something not as volatile.

[rothbardrand]

I still don't understand the volatility argument. Bitcoin is up 10X since spring 2016.... that volatility is not a problem! You just have to not care about the %30 up down in the middle.

[creatrixcordis]

The price is growing i agree. Volatility relating to security and assurance. Not being able to trust exchanges, having to trust the developers because majority of the people will not read the code for many reasons and lack of regulation. The fact that there is nothing to stop a bunch of people getting together and attempt to control the network. Which probably already has happened. These factors add up to volatility.

[CodeCube]

Oh, for sure :) It was just an arbitrary number I picked to illustrate the point.

[jstanley]

OK then, enlighten me.

In what ways does Bitcoin recreate the status quo problems of (1) the central bank being able to print arbitrary amounts of money, and (2) all individual-to-individual payments subject to censorship by a very small number of third-parties?

[creatrixcordis]

There is nothing in the protocol that will prevent anyone from hoarding or buying large amounts of bitcoin because they already have the capital to begin with. Therefore you can think of those people as similar to institutions or the 1%. So bitcoin is just another investment mechanism. That's all. No panacea here, just an over-hyped new technology that helps create profit for the ones who already have money. One that currently is only available to people who have enough resources to risk. The panacea that "bitcoin" was touted as across the web and forums galore, is just utter bs. I see a world of many private blockchain implementations but nothing that solves these censorship and printing money issues you speak of. Since according to popular theory when you print money your currency get devalued, but bitcoin also goes down when a gov say we don't like it or someone decides to start cashing in at a large scale or overhype of an issue or underhype of another. The end result is the same, less value.

But here are your answers:

1) You live and take advantage of many things you might take for granted in a society that has a certain framework that must be maintained by service providers and it is maintained implicitly by the hordes of people on earth, when greed occurs or kinks in the system happen, printing money or not printing money are just tools to deal with issues.

2) Last time i bought something on craigslist, ebay, alibaba, amazon or from Sandy down the street i don't remember any censorship. I could be mistaken though. Maybe i did not think about something. I would like to see an example of this payment censorship you say largely affected your personal life.

Now definitely if you are trying to buy armored tanks, automatic weapons, drugs, women, censored dildos, yeah i could definitely see censorship. I just don't try to buy those things. :)

Don't get mad now, my sense of humor is an acquired taste :)

[rothbardrand]

The %1 has preferential, essentially exclusive access to high risk, high reward investments, namely startups and hedge funds... but bitcoin and ethereum etc give regular people access to such invesmtents that accredited investors would previously had exclusive access to. This enables the %99 to invest in a way they couldn't before.

There are a lot of people who got rich because they got into bitcoin early... well, here's the secret-- it's still early. Very early.

Bitcoin solves the censorship issue-- nobody can stop you from transacting your bitcoin. It's not perfectly private, but things like z.cash and other technologies are enabling the anonymous own and control of bitcoin.

Printing money is a form of theft. People will pay for services they want. There's no problem for Amazon or Walmart or any of hundreds of service providers getting people to pay for their services. They don't have the ability to just print money to pay themselves (and give to the well connected-- it's ironic you call this a tool when we have seen $10T in new money issuance since 2008 that has mostly gone to politically connected %1 to enrich themselves at our expense.)

Censorship happens all the time-- government prevents you from buying insurance under Obamacare, for example. (literally, obamacare plans have no underwriting and thus are not insurance) that's a whole category of goods that are moral yet illegal to sell, and you are forced to buy an inferior product to replace it that doesn't deliver on the same promise.

Further, censorship is present in the form of border controls-- there were reports of agents stopping people on jetways as they were boarding jets to search to see if they were taking gold out of the country. From 1915-1975 approximately it was illegal to own gold in the USA and smuggling was occurring.... that's literal financial censorship and it ended not that long ago. There are a great deal of controls on USD movement, FINCEN wants to track your assets internationally, and ultimately restrict what you can move and when... that's censorship.

[creatrixcordis]

The 1% also has access to bitcoin. I would love to see the yearly incomes of people who invest in bitcoin and than we shall see about this "bitcoin is for everyone" rhetoric. Actually in fact, i would love to see a lot more transparency about the people who do invest in bitcoin, so the bitcoin story can be developed supported by more facts. So that way we will know who the interested parties are which will tell us lots about it.

The censorship issues you describe are describing people that already have money, so i don't know how these people don't follow in the above category. It sounds like these people don't want to pay any gov tax, well those are the kind of people that should stop using any of the services that society pays for using tax. They wouldn't go very far if that was to happen would they. I don't feel bad for them. If gov tax is such a big issue, why even live in society, money surely came to your pocket from society in the first place, you had to make it somehow, whether legally or illegally. So you definitely benefited. Essentially you are stealing from everyone in society when you are attempting to avoid tax or tariffs when moving your money out of the country. How much money do you really need man? The people that are investing in bitcoin are not living on a dollar a day.

Bitcoin is not for everyone and it does not make it easier for wealth to be distributed or aids upward mobility unless you count the early adopters which a lot of them just so happen to be insiders in the first place. Similar to insider traders.

Borders aren't going anywhere for a while. The real question is if these people have this money that are scared that it might be taxed or prevented from going out of the country. How did they make it in the first place?

The points you bring up have to do with people which do not want to support the society in which they live. They want to take more of the pie and bitcoin is an avenue for that at a larger scale than before.

I'm not looking for moral high ground here, but i just don't see how it benefits the regular population.

Ladies and gentleman, time to buy, it has been noted that suddenly bitcoin will solve the US health insurance problem. Right...

Smuggling will always occur before and after bitcoin.

[rothbardrand]

It's really none of your business who owns bitcoin. This surveillance society we are in isn't keeping the %1 in check. bitcoin is a reaction to that, as well as to the fiat fractional reserve banking system.

People are happy to pay for internet service. If government was delivering value, then people would be happy to pay for it... alas, most of your tax money goes to blowing up brown people and paying off political allies than actually providing any services.

I always love the "if you aren't robbed as much as I think you should, you are stealing from me" argument.

Everyone who buys bitcoin today is an early adopter. We have not crossed the chasm. but we are getting close.

How people make their money is none of your business. And you legitimately cannot move large amounts of money outside the country without being spied upon. It's not a question of the source of the funds, but the government trying to control the flow of resources out of the jurisdiction as a result of their terrible management of the economy. That's what exchange controls are all about. Delaying the collapse of a hyper inflationary currency.

Yeah, you think people wanting to avoid theft are greedy, you're wrong.

You're not even responding to the healthcare point, misrepresentation isn't impressive.

Really sounds like you have a major axe grind, but I gotta tell you, buddy, so long as you go around thinking other people are your property to enslave you're going to have a bad time.

Bitcoin is liberating us from authoritarians like you.

[creatrixcordis]

Oh now the government is stealing from you. I think it's time to open the faraday cage and come out. Everything is everyones business, now i am the oppressor because i ask questions and don't drink your bitcoin kool aid. right... We need more people like you liberating us from the phantom forces of evil, i award you the golden cross of the bitcoin nation, mission accomplished. I didn't respond to the healthcare point because it's a bullshit attempt at an anchor which has no basis.

For the record, i have no axe to grind, i could care less because i am not involved in trading bitcoin. Just want to understand it better and clear the smoke a bit.

[twayamznacct]

(1) Bitcoin Cash, Bitcoin Gold, etc. Effectively "printing money". Perhaps not entirely arbitrary, as it's limited to the number of bitcoins in existence in the "main" chain at the time of the fork, but good enough.

(2) There are a very small number of third parties that control the vast majority of hashing power