[cnp]

When a patient sits with a therapist under the influence of MDMA, which typically consists of two doses (100-120mg initially, then 70mg a few hours later) spread over an 6-8 hour period. The patient is largely experiencing their own internal process, but at times the therapist is there to help guide and comfort. Before and after the session there is conventional psychotherapeutic follow-up.

[wutbrodo]

Huh, I wonder to what extent this is dependent on the therapist understanding that you're on MDMA. I.e., would it be possible for a patient to take some MDMA (assuming you have experience with it) and then go to a therapist?

I've accidentally done as much myself with close friends instead of therapists: I started partying with Molly during a period in my life where I was already starting to recognize and work through some issues from my entire childhood: the wee hours of the morning after having an amazing night dancing is a pretty ideal setting to open up mental blocks and be honest with yourself and others. (It also made me almost instantly closer to those people, whom I consider some of the most important people in my life at this point).

[mjevans]

Some people climb mountains without professional guides.

Beginners usually need a trainer and a guide to at least get started and to not end up in a life risking situation.

In medical science those professionals are often called doctors and nurses.

[tfha]

Worth adding that a bad psychedelic experience can be quite damaging, and just like you shouldn't climb mountains without experience or a guide, you also shouldn't explore psychedelics without experience or a guide.

[wutbrodo]

I wasn't talking about beginners doing it, but there's enough confusion in the replies to my comment that the fault is probably mine for not being clear enough.

What I was wondering is more along the lines of: is the therapy appreciably different to complement the MDMA, or is it simply the increased openness etc that makes normal modes of therapy more effective?

I didn't intend to suggest that people _should_ take MDMA before therapy, but it was just a thought experiment to get at the above question. I only wondered about it because, as I said, I've incidentally done as much while talking with friends.

[et2o]

Agree MDMA has incredible potential for therapy. However I think your therapist should be comfortable/trained with it - just showing up isn’t ideal.

[wutbrodo]

To be clear, I wasn't talking about myself (I'm not in therapy), just idly wondering. I'm pretty comfortable with psychedelics personally, but have less experience with MDMA specifically and my impression is that it's a lot easier to manage than eg LSD.

There are plenty of psychoactive drugs that people don't think twice about managing themselves (weed, caffeine, alcohol), and I was just curious whether MDMA would fall into that category squarely enough (it's certainly easier to manage than alcohol is, for example).

[anythingnonidin]

The dosages used in the FDA Phase 3 research are 80mg or 120mg initial dose followed by either 40mg or 60mg 1.5-2 hrs later, respectively.

[eradicatethots]

Are they doing 6months and 1year follow ups? Short term relief is not that interesting to me

[anythingnonidin]

Yes.

See this from earlier research results http://www.mdmaptsd.org/research-category.html

> A long-term follow-up of patients who received MDMA-assisted psychotherapy revealed that overall benefits were maintained an average of 3.8 years later.

[yesbabyyes]

Is it possible to do this, today, anywhere in the world (without getting into a study, which seems hard, especially in another country)? I am looking for help for somebody close to me.

[samstave]

It would be interesting to determine the efficacy of actual MDMA (commonly available in the 90s) vs what is referred to as 'Molly' today...

The issue is that they may or may not be actual MDMA - and the unscrupulous label general amphetamines as either molly or MDMA and people unfamiliar dont know it....

The clinical studies should, presumably, be also, setting a standard for the purity, dosage, quality etc around the tested substance...

So to go "off grid" as it were, to test this has risks..

That being said - the efficacy of any therapy session, even when the introspection and emotional response is deliberately induced, could still result in benefits.

The problem with any drugs, beit alcohol, weed, whatever - is that environment (situational and historically) play a large part in the response.

The mental state can be associative to a great degree, and as such - if one has had a tool such as MDMA in the past - but in a really poor environment, the response could be poor.

Read up on it - but never trust anything off the street to be what they claim...

[yesbabyyes]

Thanks samstave, yes, I am definitely looking for pointers towards something "on grid" in particular.

That being said, I am pretty sure I can find the drug, I know some people that I can trust. Preferably it would be administered by the therapist, though.

Thanks, too, for the caution. I have already found someone in my native country who is a psychologist who also does AI stuff with Tensorflow, so I trust them already. ;)

[anythingnonidin]

Be aware:

"87% of “Molly” analyzed by the DEA between 2009 and 2013 contained 0% MDMA, instead mostly containing “bath salts” like methylone.3"

https://rollsafe.org/whats-in-molly/

[yesbabyyes]

Thanks anythingnonidin - again, I am not planning to get my friend pills off the street and pull this cowboy style. I am looking for guided counselling. That being said, I have a friend who I trust, who knows his things (well, when it comes to these things, at least).

[prklmn]

> who knows his things (well, when it comes to these things, at least).

I’d venture to guess that half the people buying MDMA-less molly would say the same thing.

If your friend isn’t sitting in the lab while it’s being made or not doing mass spec on it the product, it’s all someone’s word.

[09bjb]

Get and use a chemical assay kit of some kind. Trust but verify.

[lprubin]

There are a number of testing kits out there:

http://testkitplus.com/product/mdma-test-kit

[Obi_Juan_Kenobi]

Get a test kit and understand how it works. That's the only way to have a good idea what the compound is.

https://dancesafe.org/

[empath75]

Just anecdotally, I worked out a lot of deep seated personal issues with people at rave after parties. Really you just need anyone you trust to listen to you.

[bdamm]

Only if you know a willing therapist.

[cnp]

And that therapist has access to 100% _pure_ (and unfortunately illegal) MDMA.

This is one of the great tragedies of the war on drugs: UN member states are bound to the convention under law, so until this unjust (and unscientific) barrier is torn down it will always be dangerous and difficult to acquire for therapeutic purposes. But things, thankfully, are changing for the better.

[benevol]

It's the powers that be (money; pharmaceutical industry) who want these substances to remain criminalized, because these substances can be way more powerful and much cheaper than anti-depressants & Co. - and without destructive side-effects. So what MDMA, LSD, psilocybin and others can do is make people much healthier and the industry a tiny bit less rich, which is only in "the people's" interest.

[komaromy]

> and without destructive side-effects

You can mess up your serotonin levels for an extended period of time through MDMA abuse.

I guess that might be a direct effect rather than a side effect, but that doesn't seem to be your point.

[phkahler]

>> You can mess up your serotonin levels for an extended period of time through MDMA abuse.

You can do that with SSRIs too. You can also kill yourself with opioids. The problem is that MDMA isn't even available by prescription. The first I heard of it was on a TV special covering its use in therapy sessions - that was in the 1980s prior to the whole ecstasy fad. Why is this useful substance totally illegal, while much more harmful and addictive things are legal, available, and causing problems?

[tosstossy]

Abuse also causes be neurological damage from oxidative stress, in the raver scene sufferers of these effects are referred to as e-tards.

But abuse of anything can be harmful, that's kind of a defining qualification of the whole concept of abuse, isn't it?

[yesbabyyes]

Thanks bdamm. Yes, in particular, I am looking for pointers to that, I suppose. Perhaps, somewhere there is one and we could travel there.

[pizza]

I don't have any references for you but this interview with a psychiatrist who would use MDMA with his patients (and LSD) when he deemed it beneficial is interesting.

[yesbabyyes]

Thanks pizza - you seem to lack the "forgot to post link"-extension ;)

No, really, I am interested. Please share. Thanks.

[pizza]

Wooooops https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0ZvZAG_XRg

[benevol]

Here you go: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ppxx97/meet-the-only-doct...

Switzerland rocks in many ways.

[Toast_25]

If you decide to attempt the process in a place where you can't be guaranteed 100% pure MDMA, I suggest you look into Marquis reagents.

[rorykoehler]

I know someone who recovered from an extremely traumatic experience through accidental self medication whilst out partying.

[cnp]

It's sad but it happens. Set and setting is most important -- and needless to say, knowing what you're taking is even more so.

[foo1423]

This is such bullshit. I for instance know someone who got severe depressions from taking madma a few times. Don’t just believe the hype!

[rosser]

I don't think your comment's parent was advocating doing that. It merely offered an existence proof. Your anecdote can't beat up his, and vice versa.

[farnsworth]

Why two doses? Having no experience with this, 6-8 hours sounds like a long therapy session.

[ada1981]

it simply extends the time You are able to "work".

It's such an enjoyable and useful process that most everyone chooses to take the booster dose.

It also is a nice safety check, if the person happens to freak out or really doesn't want to continue, they can pass and come back down. But as I Said, in practice no one passes.

It's also not boring or tedious as most therapies can be, it's a lovely place you want to explore.

[empath75]

At those doses, the first few hours would be fairly mild with just a feeling of closeness, openness and comfort. The second dose would push you closer to the ‘oh my god love is everywhere why didn’t I see this before’ feeling.

[bauerd]

Are you sure about the doses? Doesn't sound overly therapeutic to me tbh

[ceejayoz]

Based on what? They're going for a different result than just getting high - the doses aren't likely to match what one might take in a club.

[thatcat]

Interestingly, they do match recreational amounts pretty closely.

[civilian]

For people who are curious, here is a dosage chart: https://erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_dose.shtml

It's a pretty normal dose.

[cnp]

Sometimes the second dose is lower, but this is the typical ballpark which is supported by research.