[Klockan]

It is certainly a part of it, McDonalds workers earn about twice as much in Sweden as in the US. There is no good reason why a dentist should earn 10 times as much as a McDonalds worker, people still work hard to get those jobs even when they just pay 2-3 times as much like in Sweden.

[cisanti]

I'm sure the dentist worked harder to become one, or has more talent, to make 10x more than McDonald's worker. The latter can be done by anyone... It's absurd to compare the two...

[badestrand]

Why is the comparison itself absurd? Both are just normal people that work all day. I guess whether the dentist "should" earn 2x or 50x is a matter of values and culture. As such I find it quite reasonable to attribute the high dentist salaries in the US to the population's high tolerance of the high income inequality.

[rscho]

Simple question: would you prefer to have your teeth fixed by a burger-flipper, or to have your burger flipped by a dental school graduate?

Second question: would you prefer living without well-cooked burgers, or live with bad teeth?

The difference in value is there.

[sorenjan]

Nobody is questioning whether dentists should be payed more than fast food workers, it's just how much more.

Another example: brain surgeons have an average salary in the US of $450 000 [0], in Sweden it's $65 700. I would agree that there is some room for higher salaries for people with advanced degrees in Sweden, but I also think that the income inequality in the US is way too high. It's a cultural thing.

[0] https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Degree=Doctor_of_Medici...

[1] http://www.lonestatistik.se/loner.asp/yrke/Hjarnkirurg-5131

[sgc]

It seems like the defense you have been required to make is just proving your point. People appear almost offended and baffled at your comments which are easy to understand.

They are also overlooking the basic facts that healthcare in Sweden is significantly better than in the US despite the significantly lower pay scale, Sweden has a higher median income, and the quality of McDonalds food and service is probably better as well (it has been anywhere I have been in Europe).

[andrei_says_]

I think that what people are missing is the premise of acceptable level of exploitation.

In the U.S., there is no limit on this. The violence of poverty is completely overlooked as is the incredibly uneven playing field.

The healthcare industry is set to extract maximum profit with minimum service and people who cannot afford the premiums are left without care options/face bankruptcy.

This is just one of the many forces increasing income inequality.

Similarly, education is expensive not because it costs that much but because it is set to maximize profits.

I’d say that dentists making 150k is less of an issue than the fast food workers making 1/8 of that with minimum wage which has not increased in decades and a house median cost is above 600k-1m.

Human beings are not seen as having dignity or value beyond the exploitable.

[ddxxdd]

>Nobody is questioning whether dentists should be payed more than fast food workers, it's just how much more.

This doesn't actually answer any questions or address any actual issues, unless you're willing to force dentists to work with your so-called "appropriate salary" with the full force of the law.

[veidr]

Draconian slave camps where people are forced to practice dentistry aren't actually necessary to address the issue; we can just look elsewhere and compare.

What virtually all advanced democracies have done is rather make a judgement about what kinds of fees are reasonable to pay for dental and medical services, and limit what the national health insurance system will pay to that.

Then see if anybody is willing to practice dentistry. They usually are.

(Also, in most, if not all, of these countries, dentists are free to charge any rate they wish for dental services, and if they can find enough people willing to pay those fees with their own money, instead of using the national health insurance system, that's fine, too. But that's typically not necessary, and hence not common.)

[nyxtom]

I have known some pretty terrible dentists and they still make a crap ton of money or just rip people off. There isn't some universal truth associated with the amount of money you make and how good you are at your job. This is the entire problem with the medical industry in the United States. For the most part you can look for recommendations, reviews, and find the right physician; for other cases where options are limited or this isn't available you don't have much you can do but be ripped off or suffer from poor service when it happens. Usually poor service and being ripped off tend to go hand in hand. It's obviously not always like this, but there are conditions where you have little choice

[ghostbust555]

10 McDonald's workers can't fix your teeth. 10 dentists can be equally as good at making hamburgers. They also invested hundreds of thousands of dollars into education. So yes they deserve to make significantly more money.

[Klockan]

> 10 McDonald's workers can't fix your teeth.

But a Swedish dentist definitely can even though he just earns twice as much as the guy flipping burgers, I don't see your point. The only reason to pay a worker more is to attract more talent to the profession, and Medicine is the field that is by far the most selective in Sweden meaning that they already get the best talent. The only thing you would accomplish by paying them more is making healthcare less affordable for the people.

[rasz]

I like this, Here is my try:

10 CEOs can't fix your teeth.

[wnkrshm]

Does sinking hundreds of thousands of dollars into education make people who studied arts / humanities deserve a proportionately higher salary as well?

[arcticbull]

Why should that education cost so much though? Not really anything, right? That's why socialized education is so valuable, because people do what they feel passionate about regardless of 'investment' cost.

[hackmode]

Because being surrounded by nice buildings and experts in their respective fields while living in densely populated cities isn't free. Who would've thought? If you're truly passionate about something, you're not going to let something as meager as tuition cost get in the way of it.

[oblib]

"10 McDonald's workers can't fix your teeth. 10 dentists can be equally as good at making hamburgers."

That is incredibly arrogant and so far wrong it's not even close to the truth.

[alasdair_]

>That is incredibly arrogant and so far wrong it's not even close to the truth.

This seems like fact to me. The whole point about McDonalds is that they have perfected their processes so well that there is very little difference in quality and output between someone who has spent 20 years making hamburgers and someone who has been there a month.

If someone is capable of being a dentist, they can likely make hamburgers. The reverse is probably not true - some portion of the people making hamburgers likely don't have what it takes to make it through dental school.

[jaredklewis]

How much do you know about McDonalds? These aren’t artisan burgers. I see no reason why a dentist, should he or she have the desire to do so, couldn’t be trained to perform the task that is being a cog in the McDonalds burger factory in at most a few days. On the other hand, training to be a dentist is going to take a lot longer.

[xur17]

Can you explain how this is wrong?

[oblib]

Of course I can explain it. First, it assumes that learning to do dentistry work requires something extraordinary but the only thing it requires is the resources (time and money) to go to school.

Not everyone who gets through school gets high marks, and of those that get high marks not all of them are necessarily inclined to be good with the tools they use.

I've known of some pretty awful dentists who tended to do as much damage to their patients as they did repairs. I have no reason to believe they'd be any better at making burgers or anything else they attempted to do.

And it takes arrogance to believe that a degree makes you superior to those who don't have one. The truth is it takes longer to become proficient in some skilled labor trades than it does to become a dentist, and it take more actual skills to do the work.

I've never met a dentist who could tear down a small block Chevy engine and rebuild it. Not one. I've never even met one that could change the oil on one, but I've known kids who learned how before they were 12 years old.

Finally, some of the most brilliant people in history, some of the greatest engineers, designers, and inventors, are people who spent very little time in school and none at all in any kind of higher education.

If you think everyone who's making your burgers is less intelligent, less capable, less creative, than yourself you are an arrogant fool.

[david38]

Your response is all over the place and off the mark.

You sound like someone who has never had to pass advanced exams to proceed with much higher levels of education.

I have relatives who are dentists. They are extraordinary in their precision. If you think it just requires time and money you clearly will never pass med school.

Awful dentists? Yes, every field has people of bad ethics. The very word "mechanic" conjures up images of incompetent lying men who will rip you off and ruin your car. What's your point?

Arrogance - nobody said anything about better. Just better at being a dentist and that learning how to flip burgers is easy.

I know a doctor who can rebuild engines. He is also a painter and a soldier. What's your point? The intersection of dentists and people who want to mess with engines when they can easily is small. It has nothing to do with ability. Changing oil takes five seconds to learn. Have you ever diagnosed an error on a chip with an oscilloscope? I have. Does that mean you are stupid or simply haven't cared to do so?

Everyone who makes burgers is less intelligent, less capable, and less creative than me is a different statement than "making burgers doesn't require the same level of intelligence, capability, and attention to detail as dental work".

Tell me, since you're so good at rebuilding engines, how good are you at rebuilding without turning it off? Without making a mistake? Fixing engines and dentistry aren't comparable, much less flipping burgers.

[oblib]

The belief that there are no genius burger flippers is what is arrogant. You apparently missed that this is the point I am making.

"I have relatives who are dentists."

And that obviously influences your take on this issue. I didn't insult or demean your relatives, I just don't have good reason to believe they're "special" because they're dentists.

"The very word "mechanic" conjures up images of incompetent lying men who will rip you off and ruin your car."

"Changing oil takes five seconds to learn."

That is exactly the kind of arrogance I'm calling out here. The truth is, pulling a tooth takes about that long to learn too, and the tools used aren't that much different.

Don't believe me?

Come on over and I'll pop one of your teeth out in about 5 seconds without ever going to school to learn how and I'll use the same tool to change the oil on my lawn mower ten seconds later.