[tomp]

> (Since I had to clarify this last time: the term refers to expressions or expectations of masculinity and masculine behaviour that are toxic, not a claim that masculinity is toxic in and of itself.)

I'd suggest that the term itself is toxic (and/or sexist). If you think otherwise, can you suggest examples of (stereotypically) masculine behaviours that aren't considered toxic, but positive by the mainstream public/media? Also, can you give any examples of "toxic femininity" behaviours?

If either of these is "no/none", then I'd prefer if you (and everybody else) avoided using this term.

[zbentley]

> Can you suggest examples of (stereotypically) masculine behaviours that aren't considered toxic, but positive by the mainstream public/media?

Sports. Military Service. Working Fathers.

[novia]

I'm not the OP, but some examples of toxic femininity I've heard are:

- Being passive to a point of causing harm through inaction

- Gossiping/body shaming/putting others down with words

The positive masculine traits should be obvious, but I'll list a few:

- Bravery

- Competitiveness

- Independence

- Confidence

[acomar]

Confidence and self-assertiveness, emotional stability, perseverance and drive. There is absolutely a positive form of masculinity that gets obscured by all the crap.

[BorgHunter]

> Also, can you give any examples of "toxic femininity" behaviours?

The idea that women should be subservient and avoid conflict at all costs would be an example of "toxic femininity". It's a mirror image of behaviors that come under "toxic masculinity", though, so I'm not sure if the term has any utility.

[hectorr1]

Positive masculinity: Discipline, risk taking, steadfastness, strength, mortal courage.

"Toxic" femininity: Gossip, hysteria.

[vorotato]

You haven't thought about this much have you...

[thesmallestcat]

Hear hear, and I'd prefer people stop overusing "toxic." Not everything that's bad, or that you disagree with, is "toxic." The person who screws with your team dynamic is not "toxic."

[Jtsummers]

"toxic" is not a bad word. It's a perfectly appropriate word to describe many things, including "toxic employees". Toxic means poisonous. It is quite possible for a person to be poisonous to a community (family, relationships, friendships, workplaces). They bring the group down, they disrupt the relationships between people ("poisoning" them). Often by their words: pointing out issues and exaggerating their significance, constant harping on specific topics and inability to move on. Sometimes by their actions: inability to meet expectations, inability to keep promises or obligations.

The term may get abused by some people who just want to call anything they dislike toxic, but we shouldn't throw out a perfectly good word (and associated phrases) just because you think "toxic" is toxic.

[forgottenpass]

"Toxic" is vague and imprecise in a way that raises the likelihood that multiple participants in a conversation will have different interpretations without noticing they don't all agree on what it means.

This lack of clarity is unavoidable in all communication. We can't transplant thoughts directly from one brain to another. But I find that words like "toxic" convey an assessment, rather than description, in contexts where that level of abbreviation is not helpful.

If the more-precise descriptor of behavior was used in the first place, the toxicity of that behavior will likely be self-apparent. But if "toxic" alone is used, we either have to circle the conversation back to pick up the better descriptor, or just assume that the speaker is right.

Toxic is a bad word because it's become a go-to choice for poor articulation. Using it conveys an impression that an assessment of "toxicity" has been made off-screen, but is broad and amorphous enough that I can't trust it implies anything more specific than a snap judgment.

[vorotato]

Toxic strictly means any behavior in a conflict or disagreement which erodes the relationship or discussion. Hope this helps. So for example, toxic behavior within a team is behavior which erodes the team, it's toxic because it damages that relationship. If you don't care about that relationship, you might not care if its toxic, because you don't mind if it dies. That does not mean it's not toxic though.

[forgottenpass]

>Toxic strictly means [...]. Hope this helps.

It doesn't. That's a gigantic category, and one degree removed by being an assessment of a behavior rather than a summary. -- Of course the assessment is important in it's own right, but it such a lossy description it's rarely a substitute for more concise descriptors.

[vorotato]

Telling people what words to use in a dialogue is toxic. :V