[coldtea]

Why should they? Should everybody that makes a mistake in their job be fired?

The magazine retracted the story and apologized. The author apologized as well. The editor handed over their resignation (it was not accepted).

What do you want, to have them be some parriahs that never find journalistic work again?

[jessriedel]

All mistakes are not the same, and there are ones that ought to end a career. When the captain of a Navy ship has an accidental collision, his career is over. A sufficiently bad news article can wreck the lives of multiple innocent people, and kill public trust in the newspaper and the author. In this way, a bad editor or writer can do more damage in one decision than they can make up for in the entire rest their career.

I don't have an opinion on this case in particular, but there are cases where no amount of apologizing is enough. Becoming a copy writer for the rest of one's career does not strike me as a particularly cruel and unusual punishment.

[coldtea]

>When the captain of a Navy ship has an accidental collision, his career is over.

Is that always true? I'm not so sure. And even if it is true, perhaps it should not be so. All kinds of professionals have accidents or errors and continue to work.

There's this apocryphal story that makes some sense.

Tom Watson Jr., CEO of IBM between 1956 and 1971, was a key figure in the information revolution. (...) A young executive had made some bad decisions that cost the company several million dollars. He was summoned to Watson’s office, fully expecting to be dismissed. As he entered the office, the young executive said, “I suppose after that set of mistakes you will want to fire me.” Watson was said to have replied, “Not at all, young man, we have just spent a couple of million dollars educating you.”

[barkingcat]

Easy to find examples:

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stories/2017/08/23/remain...

Start at the top and start firing.

"Vice Admiral Joseph Aucoin, who headed America's Asia-based 7th Fleet, has been relieved of his duties following the damage to the USS John S McCain."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/world/asia/fitzgerald-col...

Next up is the commander of the ship and the senior officers.

Being relieved of duties doesn't mean firing though. Could be that they become paper pushers. The next step would be court martial.

But yes, there are career ending mistakes. Especially when they cause the death of 7 people and takes a 9000 ton, $1.5 billion ship out of commission. The Arleigh Burke class also forms a good chunk of an aircraft carrier group's defensive perimeter, so by taking out these ships, these mistakes (whether one mistake or many mistake doesn't matter) puts approximately $30 Billion worth of military assets (not to mention the 5000+ people) at risk.

How's that for a career ender?

[cdolan]

Perhaps this is why the Rolling Stone is for sale then?

Author and Editor fail to validate highly sensitive claims in an incredibly amateur fashion. * they did not even ask the accused for comment*.

Rather than separate from the author and Editor, and help them find a career elsewhere, the publication gives a pretty weak apology and doubles down on two individuals who obviously failed to follow basic journalism standards.

They don't need to be "parriahs", but I do think it rubbed readers the wrong way when RS continued to defend their work and ultimately gave a sour retraction ('we were hoodwinked!') and weak "sorry!".

[coldtea]

>Perhaps this is why the Rolling Stone is for sale then?

Obviously not. Else countless others shit-rags would also be.

In the era of fake news this is a misdemeanor.

[cdolan]

Justifying poor journalism by referencing more poor journalism is not a recipe for success.

[coldtea]

I'm not justifying anything, just applying logic.

Saying that bad journalism "is why the Rolling Stone is for sale" makes no sense when bad (and far worse) journalism does just fine everywhere.

[DanielBMarkham]

They used their position with the public's trust to irrevocably harm people. Then when caught didn't seem to change much. That's an indication of an organization not to trust anymore.

But the real problem? It's just crappy journalism. Taking some half-assed, re-hashed current political narrative being peddled by somebody with emotional problems, forgetting the editing and fact-checking, and running with it front-page. They suck at their job. That's an indication of an organization that doesn't care about quality.

The best defense I can come up with for RS is that we live in a tough-as-nails media market, and everybody's having to cut corners and pump stories far past reason. Doesn't mean they suck any less, just that they suck as much as many other news outlets. They got caught.

Good journalism is rare and getting rarer. Whether RS fired anybody or not isn't very important. What _is_ important is that their publishing of the story and reaction to it forms a not-so-pretty picture of where the overall industry is.

[geebee]

There are a couple of things going on here.

First, there's a difference between malpractice and a mistake, even a serious one. The problem with the rolling stone incident, as I understand it, was that the editors failed to take the most basic, widely recognized steps to ensure integrity in a situation where they were unusually essential.

There's a difference between making a mistake as a lawyer, for instance, and breaching ethics, basic procedures, or committing "gross incompetency" in a way that gets you disbarred.

Furthermore, there's a huge difference between temporary disbarment and becoming a pariah that never works again in the field.

Now, law isn't journalism, there isn't a "bar" or a specific concept of disbarment, and rules are looser in journalism. But the journalists and editors behind this story do seem, by the standards of their profession, to have committed far more than a mistake. This was really, really serious, and goes deep into gross incompetence and breach of ethics.

In spite of this, and how outrageous it was, I do think the day could come where they'd be reasonably welcomed back into their profession as full members. But this was really serious, and I do think removal from their positions, and an extended period of working as a proofreader under the supervision of a journalist with a better track record, certainly isn't unreasonable.

In fact, it might be the sort of thing that would actually help the journalists and editors to re-enter their field again in the future, with trust.

[lr4444lr]

Erdely did not just make "a mistake". The evidence is that she was grossly and willfully negligent in the very basics of journalism, e.g. soliciting information from the accused.

[FussyZeus]

> What do you want, to have them be some parriahs that never find journalistic work again?

By the time the correction is issued, the false information has spread worldwide. There are still people who believe dumb conspiracy theories because the early coverage of events like Katrina and 9/11 got it wrong.

And the correction will never go viral the way the wrong-headed reporting will.

So yes, they shouldn't work again. And maybe if we burn enough people in such a way editors will pump the brakes a little on breaking news in such a way to avoid printing bullshit and infecting the public further.

[dforrestwilson]

I think it's partly an issue with retractions. Information can be kind of insidious, even when the consumer knows it is false. Fox news does tons of retractions (of course), but it's the way they do it that really tells you what they are about.

I'm all for free speech, but I wish we could get a handle on people saying completely wrong things for profit.