[pjc50]

> It is not true that the Left is more liberal. They are more socialist, which is simply not listed in these article's diagrams

This is an important point which trying to ram non-US political parties into a US-based single left-right spectrum does not account for.

Another important distinction which people miss is "Islam" (the religion) vs "Islamism" (its involvement in politics).

[erikb]

Yes, in Germany left means Socialist, right means Fascist, and the differentiation between conservatism and progressiveness is actually something you can find in each of the corners. I also believe that Germany is not the only country like that. E.g. I have just finished watching season 3 of the tv show Narcos and it seems to me as if in Colombia this distinction also exists and it is enforced even stronger, with the liberal power being in government, and both left socialist and right fascist parties being military forces on the outskirts (considering the ability to kill as a political power as well).

I agree that there is a distinction between Islam and Islamism. However I wouldn't say one is political the other religious. In the same way we can't put German parties on a US spectrum, we can't put Islam on a Christian spectrum. For Islam politics and religion are not two separate topics. It's one topic. If there's a distinction for Muslims it is for other factors, which I sadly don't know however. (If a Muslim reads it feel free to educate me on that part. I'm certainly interested)

[pluma]

Maajid Nawaz would disagree with your assessment of Islam and Islamism.

For Christianity politics and religion used to be as inseparable as they are for Islam today. Not so long ago most heads of state were subject to the Vatican (whether ceremonially or literally) and granted their authority by divine privilege alone.

The separation of church and state in the Christian world is largely a relatively new phenomenon and ultimately dates back to the Peace of Westphalia (the 17th century is much closer to the present day than to the birth of Christianity) which established the counter-intuitive idea that it's okay for other nations to have other religious beliefs than your own.

For many Muslims today, Islam is Islamism, with varying degrees of urgency, but that doesn't mean you can't have Islam without Islamism or that you shouldn't make the distinction. Islam is just lagging behind Christianity when it comes to holy wars and acceptance of other faiths (even other sects of Islam itself). There are plenty of explanations for why that is the case and not few of them at least partially blame the West, but it's an evolution that's still happening in Islam and that needs to happen for Islam to peacefully coexist with other religions and the non-religious.

[pjc50]

Indeed. Not to mention that German politics has both a "Christian Democratic Union" and "Christian Social Union". Let's not pretend that the West is a nice cleanly separated secularist utopia.

[pluma]

True. The only secular countries in "the West" I can think of are Turkey and France. And sadly Turkey has very nearly abandoned their secular foundations by embracing Erdoğanism.

However despite Germany's faults at least Germany is not Christian by law. The reason Islam doesn't enjoy the same privileges as mainstream Christianity is that Christians are better organised and less sectarian.

The Catholic Church in Germany needs no explanation but the Evangelical Church in Germany is a union of Lutherans, Calvinists and other protestants. The Islamic sects are far too disunited to form an alliance like this. A single Islamic faith group (Ahmadiyya) managed to organise as a public corporation (i.e. a recognised religious group) and they only exist in two out of Germany's 16 states and represent a minority group compared to other Islamic sects.

To give you a better idea, here's the list of recognised religious groups in the most populous state of Germany:

http://www.bmi.bund.de/PERS/DE/Themen/Informationen/Religion...

Most of them are Christian, even including Mennonites and Jehova's Wittnesses. There are also numerous Jewish communities. There's even a Hindu temple. Yet not a single Islamic group. This isn't the result of a Christian bias, it's entirely on the Islamic communities.

[erikb]

That's a very new idea for my, so I have to think about it before I could argue for or against it. Thanks for opening up my mind for it.

[webwanderings]

Are you asserting 'Islam is political' as in, Muslim citizens participate in civic duties of the land they call home? If yes, then you're correct. However, if you think Islam not being just a religion, is there to "take over" and "subjugate" then that's not only incorrect but instigating fear. The typical 'separation of Church and State' does not apply to Islam because there is no Church in Islam. What does apply is the Balance between person's Material World and Spiritual Faith (duties to the world she cohabits, and duty to the faith she follows) which by the way, has no clash. One cannot separate the two into different compartments. It may be a difficult concept to understand under a Christian lense.