[irpapakons]

We know very little about what the Brexit agreement will look like. As long as high paying jobs exist, nothing stops highly skilled European people from continuing to get them, even if that involves a bit more bureaucracy.

[bad_user]

The problem is highly skilled Europeans can also get those jobs elsewhere. Berlin, Amsterdam, Paris, Dublin, Munich, Stockholm, Copenhagen, etc.

And if somebody is willing to suffer through bureaucracy and be humiliated in that process, for a city that has an insanely high cost of living, then why would people go to London instead of San Francisco or New York?

The problem with leaving the EU is that the EU provides competitive advantages and opportunities that are now going to be gone.

Plus that referendum is signaling to me, an European, that I'm not wanted there. Oh and I'm also a Romanian and we've been used as scapegoats in the UK's anti-immigration campaign. Don't think that I'm going to forget that easily.

[smcl]

I really feel for the raw deal Poles, Romanians and Bulgarians have had in the UK media. People act like these are primitive countries with hordes of would-be immigrants desperate to take advantage of the UK's "generous" (HA!) benefits system ... and it's simply not true. Charlie Brooker had an excellent piece on the news coverage, once the EU restrictions were completely lifted in the last few years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jai4v4aNe-s

[noir_lord]

My partner is Hungarian, I'm English - the atmosphere in this country is fucking retarded, she has a degree in international finance and is just finishing qualifying as a ship broker, her education level exceeds mine and nearly everyone I know, she's lived here for 10 years, always paid taxes and is raising her son here but somehow she's a problem.

In the longer term we are looking at a move to Germany as she speaks fluent German (she worked as a translator), Hungarian and English and I'm a programmer.

I've never been particularly proud of been British (I didn't get to tick a box saying where I wanted to be born) but these days I am ashamed.

[thriftwy]

That's how the life in the world with borders is. Anywhere in the world.

The situation when the color of your passport is more important that any of your eduction, qualifications and experience is the rule, not an exception. It is how the world works by default, for people outside IT, and for most people inside IT too.

I'm kind of annoyed how people from first-world countries are suddently striken with this revelation when it suddently affects somebody they know, shows how blind they were when it didn't.

[avh02]

My favourite thing has demonstrating to people how complicated it is for me (non-EU/UK) to go just about anywhere from the UK as a base (brexit makes no difference to this).

I originally wanted to live/work here, to the extent of job hunting and getting offered a job - I decided not to go ahead because I would have to go through hell every time I wanted to take a break/vacation and go somewhere.

Living/working in the schengen zone means I can just hop on a plane/train and go to a variety of places. Why wouldn't I do that?

[Silhouette]

I don't know your situation, but I can't help thinking that some of the attitude you describe is more perception than reality.

One of the things even our current government has managed to say reasonably clearly is that people from the EU who are living and working here legally today will be welcome to stay post-Brexit. They're quibbling over details, because that's what politicians and diplomats do, but I don't think anyone serious is suggesting that someone like your partner or her son should lose out here.

Similarly, there are some very nasty racist/xenophobic people in the UK, and sadly there always have been, and it looks like there are similar unpleasant undercurrents in various other places around the EU as well. However, exactly none of the Leave voters I know would be among those people. There seem to be plenty of reasons people voted Leave that have nothing to do with the immigration issue or somehow wanting to "throw out" citizens from other EU states. One group of people I talked to before the vote were even tending towards Leave for exactly the opposite reason: they had nothing against reasonable immigration, but didn't see why the EU should have an advantage over, say, someone similarly qualified or connected but from the US or Australia, and they wanted the whole immigration and visa system to be forced to update for the 21st century. (Possibly an optimistic view of the likely outcome, but a reasonable enough position in principle, IMHO.)

I am not ashamed to be British because of the Brexit vote, but I am sad about how it's been portrayed particularly in the media and by a rather unpleasant part of the Remain contingent online, because I think it makes some people feel far less welcome here than they still are by most Brits.

[jdiez17]

This is exactly how I feel about the whole Brexit mess, as an European that is working in the UK. For me, moving here was as simple as getting on a plane and handing my Spanish identity card to a customs officer. This is my benchmark for the post-Brexit immigration system: if it is one iota more inconvenient for an European like me to move to and work in the UK, I will pack up my stuff and go somewhere else, because I would not have even considered coming here in the first place if that was the case.

Like you said, there are plenty of other places full of smart people in Europe. I feel strongly about doing this as a political statement, or "voting with my feet". In Spain, brain drain is a serious problem that politicians pay attention to, so maybe it will give the UK's negotiators some pause when thinking about this.

[blibble]

so you're going to punish the brexit voter by doing exactly what they want and leaving

good job

[lou1306]

Well, if what they want will harm them long term, why not?

[user5994461]

>>> Berlin, Amsterdam, Paris, Dublin, Munich, Stockholm, Copenhagen, etc.

All cities that have another language than English, and don't have a quarter of the jobs in London.

>>> San Francisco or New York?

It's impossible to get VISA to live and work in the USA, for an European. Americans don't seem to realize how closed their country is.

[petagonoral]

You do realise Dublin is in Ireland and they speak English natively.

Also, one can easily live in Berlin with just English (as long as you don't need to interact with government too much)

[avh02]

or you know, live a little and learn a language (or enough to get by).

[thriftwy]

Maybe what you are describing is in fact a good thing?

London gets correction on its growth, rest of the UK sligtly benefits by getting industries back which can no longer be served from within EU. Which will lead to slowdown or reversal of inequality growth.

[slashdotdash]

The remainder of the U.K., outside of London, has a larger dependency on the EU. These regions will suffer disproportionately more than London.

"In particular, Northern Ireland (the UK’s poorest region), the North East (England’s poorest region) and the South West (Southern England’s poorest region) appear to be the most dependent on the ability of the UK to trade in goods with relatively few restrictions with other EU countries." [1]

[1] "UK regions, the European Union and manufacturing exports" http://speri.dept.shef.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Brie...

[thriftwy]

I can feel the pain with regards to Northern Ireland.

Though, it's hard to justify how Northern Ireland happen to become the UK’s poorest region, given how Ireland is more prosperous than the UK by the numbers.

The whole situation is hilarous IMO.

[tonyedgecombe]

If I thought that was going to happen I would have voted for Brexit, if we go through with it the regions are likely to suffer the most, in particular car manufacturing.

[poooogles]

>for a city that has an insanely high cost of living, then why would people go to London instead of San Francisco or New York?

Because that's even harder. The American visa system is even more insane than the UK one. I'd love to move to California (if only for a couple of years) but it seems to be totally impossible when it comes to a visa.

[D_Guidi]

Yep, but you can choose Berlin, Milan, Madrid

[charlesdm]

The problem is that those are not native english speaking countries.

Barcelona is a great city, but if you don't speak any Spanish and/or Catalan (and don't intend to learn) then good luck building a life there. Life is more than work. The ability of the general population to speak acceptable English in say Spain, is abysmal.

And it's like that in many EU countries. The same applies to Paris, Munich, and Amsterdam. Some cities and countries are easier to live in for English speakers, and the UK in combination with Ireland is probably a prime example.

[GlennS]

As a British person (who voted to remain), this makes me really sad to read. I think immigration helps to keep society from stagnating.

I feel like the UK will be diminished, and that it will have deserved it.

(Currently working on emigrating.)

[antouank]

If you follow closely the UK government's positions and actions for the last 2 years, it's only logical to assume that the outcome will be negative. The only question is how much negative. ( hint: a lot )

As an EU national who came to the UK 5 years ago, I'm in the process of preparing to leave in a year.

Already numbers show that even if the outcome is vague, a large percentage is alrady leaving ( mainly low-wage workers that are affected from a weak GBP )

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-24/immigrati...

Now imagine what happens when people realise they'll need a Visa or getting a new passport and rejecting their own. I'd certainly leave. My bet is that a 30~50% of EU nationals will leave within the next 5 years, which is a huge blow to London and the UK.

[charlesdm]

Flipside is that the UK still has one of the most interesting tax systems in Europe aside from Monaco, (London and UK) property just got 30% cheaper for those not earning in pounds and London is still a global prime city (Brexit or not, don't really see that changing).

The country will be fine in the end. If anything, with how things are going, they'll probably end up either 1) not leaving (not that likely), or 2) end up with a very similar deal to what they have now (a lot more likely). But it will take years to figure things out and put it all together in a deal.

It makes no sense whatsoever for both sides to be mad at each other -- the EU and UK make good trading partners, part of the EU or not.

[antouank]

> It makes no sense whatsoever for both sides to be mad at each other -- the EU and UK make good trading partners, part of the EU or not.

It doesn't. But that's the thing, the actors here are not in for the greater good like you. They have selfish micro-perspectives and all they care is maintaining power => votes. So for the particular UK government, priority is satisfying their voters. And those voters are ... not that smart or aware of how economies/countries work.

Again, look at what they say, and then look at what they do, since the campaign for Brexit started. Common sense is the thing that you will not find. Unfortunately.

> The country will be fine in the end.

Yeah, the sky will not fall. Everything will be "fine".

[nkoren]

As a non-EU immigrant who has lived here for 10 years and is still struggling with visa issues, the idea that it will involve just "a bit" more bureaucracy is laughable. The bureaucracy is appalling. Europeans who have any alternative will undoubtedly go elsewhere.

[kogepathic]

> As a non-EU immigrant who ... is still struggling with visa issues

Amen. I was trying to decide between working in the UK or in Europe several years ago. I'm from a common wealth country so I assumed getting a UK visa would be cheap/easy.

No way José! The UK visa requirements were positively assinine in their requirements (everywhere you've visited the last 10 years, visa fees totaling over 800£). Requirements for someone with a university education and no criminal record or even a speeding ticket, which yes, you must also declare when applying.

It was basically an complicated and expensive process designed to catch you lying (intentionally or by omission) so they could deny you the visa.

I ended up going to a European country. Showed them my working contract and a copy of my university degree. 110€ and I had a 3 year work visa within 6 weeks.

The UK is insane for immigration.

[nkoren]

> The UK is insane for immigration.

Completely. I could immigrate to Germany for about 1/20th of the cost (in application and legal fees) that it is taking me to simply maintain my residency in the UK. And is despite being a native English speaker, Oxford graduate, resident here for 10 years, and founder of two UK companies.

By the time I get permanent residency here, I will have spent over £12,000 on application and legal fees, and hundreds of hours on paperwork.

Those in the UK who believe that they can remain an internationally competitive and attractive destination with this kind of visa regime are -- I'm sorry, there's no polite way to say this -- utterly fucking delusional.

[corford]

I like Chilie's approach to visa fees: they charge you whatever your country charges Chileans. So it's something like €100 if you are German and €1200+ if you are from the UK :D

[joejerryronnie]

For some reason I read the first line of this comment as "I like China's approach to visa fees..."

In rapid succession I thought, why would China tie their visa fees to Chile? Are Chilean geopolitics closely aligned with China? Is there some complex macroeconomic formula that involves Chilean immigration patterns? Is China just trolling the West by randomly pegging their visa fees to Chile?

I should really pay more attention when scanning HN comments.

[thriftwy]

I actually think it's free for Germans since most of EU don't have visas with most of Lat Am.

[avh02]

you might find the following fairly interesting:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/01/home-office-...

as a third-worlder, I've started to keep a running spreadsheet of all visa fees (and associated costs) I have paid that I would not have to pay if I were a first-worlder. (Schengen application fees multiple times, UK visit, Hong Kong visit, UK student, etc.)

The only one I can let slide so far is the one for my student visa in the UK (especially the NHS coverage parts) as I've never paid income tax in the UK.

[msangi]

> As long as high paying jobs exist

Reading the news and from rumors, companies are planning to move away or at least to keep London on hold and instead hire people somewhere else.

Brexit is also weakening the pound, which means that is much easier for European companies to be competitive with London salaries.

I've been in London for almost 4 years and I've a very good position so I'll probably stick around for a while and see what happens. In the meantime, I'm having a look for better opportunities somewhere else.

[alphabetam]

Not really: it's not bureaucracy that scares us Europeans, rather than the fact that over 50% of the country voted in an indisputably racist way to lower immigration. It's the fact that Europeans in the UK feel mistreated and disliked now.

[jamiegreen]

Whilst some people may have had racist intentions in voting leave, it is not fair to say that 50% of the country voted in a racist way. Also why does a desire for lower immigration automatically mean you must be racist?

[tonyedgecombe]

I'm sure it's not the whole 50% but it is a significant number, I've even seen it on my own family and it isn't very nice. This part of Brexit worries me more than the economic issues.

[oh_sigh]

Sure it's fair. We intelligent and moral people in America have already determined that anyone who voted for Trump to be decent facto racist. This is just a small extension of that. There's no other possible explanation. None at all. The other side is evil, and just want to watch the world burn. Can't they see that were building a better world and they just want to live in ruins with their pure bred families.

[kevin_thibedeau]

Not all but certainly a healthy double digit percentage. The rest are easily manipulated followers.

[ZenoArrow]

I wonder how many times I need to repeat myself on HN before the message gets across...

I voted for Brexit, but I did not vote based on immigration policy. In addition to seeing no major problems with the current immigration arrangements from an economic perpective, one of my grandfathers was an immigrant to the UK, and I'm glad to have my mixed ancestry, if nothing else it made my childhood more interesting.

The problem really is with the media. They've set out Brexit as a two-issue debate. The only two issues that get discussed are immigration and the economy. So if you voted for Brexit you're either a racist or an economic luddite. I bet you can't even guess why I'd vote for Brexit without being driven by those two factors. That's the level to which the debate has been simplified in the media.

So let me say this, speaking as a Brexit voter, you are welcome in this country. Don't let the media tell you why those 50% of voters (which wasn't 50% the UK population) voted the way they did, they haven't got a clue.

[msangi]

You forgot to tell us the reason why you voted leave

[ZenoArrow]

I intentionally omitted the reason I voted leave to highlight how limited the public debate has been (i.e. that it's not possible for many Remain voters to guess any other reasons than the two I outlined).

If you are curious about the reasons I voted to leave, look through my comment history around the time of the Brexit vote. I may explain it again later once I've made my point about the media's role in limiting the public debate.

[Symbiote]

I presume you wanted to remove the EU's influence over British law.

This position was widely discussed in the British media [1]. Suggesting otherwise is bananas :-D

[1] A Google search for "Brexit sovereignty" gives plenty of articles, from across all newspapers.

[ZenoArrow]

British sovereignity is certainly closer to the reasons why I voted for Brexit, but it's not the full picture. The main problem I have with the EU is how it's run. I'm not opposed to a union with other countries, just not the union we have, and the structure of the EU makes it resistant to any change that doesn't strengthen the current power structure.

One of the complaints I have about how the media has portrayed the issues is that it's conflated membership of the EU with being European, by focusing so heavily on the immigration angle. I'm still a European if I want to be outside of the EU. The EU is still mostly a trade organisation. Nobody calls people from the US anti-American if they criticise NAFTA (they are of course different arrangements, but certain comparisons can be made). Yet the portrayal of a European who is critical of the EU is of someone who is anti-European.

If you want a view that certainly wasn't emphasised in the Brexit debate, here are some of the comments of Tony Benn about the EU:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQY2CHx4d3U

[hyperdunc]

Imagine what the working class in the UK have felt like for the past 30 years.

[corford]

Agree but try "last 300+ years" rather than 30. Sadly I don't think Brexit will be their salvation. The problem with the UK and class has always lied with domestic politics. This wont change whether we're in or out of Europe.

[grey-area]

Imagine what they'll feel like when they realise limiting immigration will not save them but lead to more austerity.

[hyperdunc]

If it does, imagine what they might do when they realize that.

A rapidly changing first-world is producing a lot of losers - but they're not yet disenfranchised and many of them are even armed.

[grey-area]

I'm a little concerned about this.

We're entering a new industrial revolution - a lot of white collar jobs and blue collar jobs are being disrupted or eliminated. For example every factory and driving job will disappear in our lifetimes, many office jobs will be disrupted. New jobs will be found, we'll be more productive, and the world will be better because of it, but history shows us that this sort of disruption and destroyed livelihoods leads to violence, revolutions and unrest. We will see a similar situation to the original industrial revolution.

I do think it is misguided and harmful to attempt to try to find scapegoats for structural changes in society (popular just now are immigrants, muslims, corporations or evil federal governments), which is why I disagree fundamentally with almost every argument advanced for Brexit (from foreigners are taking our jobs to the evil EU is out to crush our democracy). It will not end well when people don't see improvement in their life but suffer more, and wonder who is to blame if not immigrants.

[seddona]

Every single person I know that voted leave did it on economic grounds. I'm sure a proportion was flat out racism but it's nowhere near 50%.

[sw00pur]

If that were the case, which it isn't, they would've voted against Eastern Europeans, not Western Europeans.

[oh_sigh]

Indisputably racist? Theres no other explanation you can entertain?