[cryodesign]

You are right, farming could be more sustainable and less destructive (see vertical farm, aeroponics etc).

But it's been proven that producing meat requires more resources than producing plant based foods. So if we truly care about feeding 7+ billion people, then we would reduce our meat consumption or move to a plant based diet completely. This is one thing each of us can directly do something about - by simply buying different foods. You should watch that presentation by Beyond Meat founder Ethan Brown.

Also, when talking about moral reasons, this is not just about minimising the suffering of animals. What do you think seeing animals being killed, sliced open alive etc day in day out does to the human psyche - you can find out here: http://scholar.colorado.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2157... - also see this quote [1].

If you couldn't get any other job other than working in a slaughterhouse or food prep shop and they both pay the same - which job would you pick? Would you want to kill animals every day or rather wash, cut, peel fruits and veg every day?

Our buying choices do matter.

[1] "The worst thing, worse than the physical danger is the emotional toll. If you work in that stick pit for any period of time, you develop an attitude that lets you kill things, but doesn’t let you care. You may look a hog in the eye that’s walking around down in the blood pit with you and think, God, that really isn’t a badlooking animal. You may want to pet it. Pigs down on the kill floor have come up and nuzzled me like a puppy. Two minutes later I had to kill them-beat them to death with a pipe. I can’t care (Dillard, p. 398, 2008). "

[pier25]

> But it's been proven that producing meat requires more resources than producing plant based foods

It's true, but you can see the global sources of emissions here.

https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/global-greenhouse-gas-emiss...

As I hope you can see we have bigger problems to worry about.

> What do you think seeing animals being killed, sliced open alive etc day in day out does to the human psyche

My grandparents killed animals on their farm regularly. Not only they were good moral people, but their way of life was much more sustainable and respectful of the planet than any of us here.

By focusing on something that shocks you personally you are missing the whole picture.

[cryodesign]

Thanks for that link. I'll have a look.

But why can't we act on multiple fronts? We can do many things to reduce our carbon foot print, and choosing not to eat meat or reducing it is one of those things.

Our meat consumption is a big problem environmentally - see https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/meat-and-environm...

Also, the way we farm animals now a days is completely different to when your grand parents farmed them. Using factory farming to feed the world is just not sustainable.

Look, I get it - most people can't give up meat, we're addicted to it and it's also cultural. But what we can do is giving a signal to the market that we demand better, by choosing to buy alternatives that are better on many fronts, like Beyond Meat etc.

That's why I really admire the work by Ethan Brown, he's trying to create meat using plant protein. You should watch the presentation by him I posted earlier - you might find it interesting.

[pier25]

BTW the problem is not really meat production (as far as emissions go) but beef production.

http://imgur.com/a/Rwm5R

> But why can't we act on multiple fronts?

Yes, as long as we don't forget where the big problem really lies and we also act there.

I've met quite a number of vegetarians that believe that not eating meat is the solution to all problems. Of course they fly to Thailand for their yoga retreat, buy food at supermarkets, buy products that have been transported all over the world, and a very long etcetera. It's easy to ride on the moral high ground of vegetarianism blindly ignoring every other facet of our modern lifestyle. From a seemingly benign Google search, to watching a movie at the theatre.

I don't like to touch this subject but another big and controversial issue is having kids. Every kid we put on this planet will produce a number of tons of CO2. About 7 on average, about 20 for a US kid.

http://www.wri.org/sites/default/files/uploads/per_capita_em...

So can we act on multiple fronts?

Can we remove a glass of water from a sinking ship at the same that we pour buckets of water in it?

You tell me.

[cryodesign]

If you multiply that glass of water times a million - it will have an impact. Every Little Helps so they say here.

Also, what is the point of having a moral high ground? It doesn't accomplish anything. Even if some people's motivation for not eating meat is to feel morally superior, it shouldn't be a deciding factor for others to not eat meat.

For me personally it's about values[1]. I remember watching Star Trek as a kid and I think Riker said something along the lines that humanity doesn't enslave animals anymore[3]. We need a vision for the future and not oppressing and exploiting other beings for our own culinary pleasures is a good value to have I think.

We don't have to wait until the 24th century either. The future is already here, it's easier now than ever to choose not to kill animals, there are so many other delicious recipes[2] out there - if one would invest the time to research this.

And in terms of having kids - I think it was Hans Rosling who said that birth rates seem to fall in the developed countries. Also, imagine we would show a toddler how his sausages etc are made - from beginning to end. How do you think small kids would react if they knew what actually happens to peppa pig and friends? Why don't we show our kids the process of producing meat?

------------

[1] Best quote on this is from Dr Alex Hershaft. Holocaust survivor and FARM founder. He drew many similarities between what the Nazis did and what we do to farm animals. His story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7dZv43A0g0

His quote:

"[...]It's about us. It's about who we are, how we treat the least defensible, the most oppressed, the weakest in our society. What does it say about us?"

[2] http://annajones.co.uk/books

[3] EDIT: found that Riker quote from TNG: https://youtu.be/sS7NRtEJBcA?t=31s

[ahartman00]

You guys have both made some good points here. However imo, you are kind of arguing past each other. (I hope you are not offended by my critique)

I think pier25's point is we should spend our time advocating for the most important issues. See the forest, dont focus on one tree. It is true that beef has a large impact, but maybe time would be better spent advocating renewable energy subsidies and or carbon taxes? You can only complain so much before people get sick of you right? :P However I think their point was weakened by the anecdotes about vegetarians who do other unsustainable things and calling them delusional.

I think cryodesign's point is that every little bit counts. The forest is made up of trees after all. And it easier to avoid meat than it is to invent renewable power that can provide base load.(well I love meat, but I have been reducing my beef consumption) I think they focused too much on how it feels. You can humanely kill an animal imo. As someone who grew up on a farm, I found the quote about killing them with a pipe unbelievable.

[cryodesign]

Hey, thanks for chiming in, not offended at all, these discussions are good.

In terms of what happens on animal farms and slaughter houses, you should check out the 'Earthlings' documentary I posted. Most meat that is consumed comes from factory farms. Those places are hell holes.

In terms of humanely killing, I think it's an oxymoron, the same way that 'humane oppression' is an oxymoron. Animals don't want to be killed. Humans don't need meat anymore to survive, so why are we continuing to oppress and exploit these beings? Could you kill and slaughter an animal? If not, why demand that others do it for you?

I see more and more people waking up to this fact and researching this and finding out that everything they believed was misguided, e.g. needing meat to be strong etc. One of the strongest person (Patrick Baboumian) on the planet is vegan, and more athletes are also becoming vegan.

If we create more demand for plant based foods, we will see more options in stores. Here in Europe, even Aldi and Lidl have vegan products now.