[schwabacher]

ID laws are most likely to exclude young, black, low income and (legal) immigrant voters who are less likely to have drivers licenses than others and are more likely to vote for democrats. (here is one study https://apnews.com/1dba56c5f8f7430f859748aff4405b10/study-vo...)

Some of the laws are explicitly designed to favor demographics that skew conservative and exclude others - for example Texas accepts gun licenses as valid IDs but excludes student IDs.

[rsynnott]

We need ID to vote in Ireland (in theory; it's spot-checked), but the range of things accepted as ID are much greater. In particular, a debit or credit card can be used, as can a social security card. Since basically everyone either has a job (and thus needs a bank account) or draws some sort of social welfare, or both, nearly everyone has one of these anyway.

Most developed countries just have a mandatory ID card, of course.

The US states requiring ID would be much less worrying if they would accept something that everyone has. It's the selectiveness about forms of ID that makes the motives clear...

[dragonwriter]

> The US states requiring ID would be much less worrying if they would accept something that everyone has.

Sure, but a key purpose of voter IDs laws, as proponents will sometimes admit in public (or in remarks that aren't intended to become public but do) is to tip the partisan scales in elections.

[an_account]

A lot of people in the US (even ones with jobs) are unbanked so wouldn’t have even an ATM card.

[rsynnott]

Ah, right. Most employers here wouldn't be enthusiastic about paying people any way other than transfer to a bank/credit-union account these days.

[rdtsc]

Is it possible to have national ID laws and not let states like Texas mess with those.

Maybe that's not what you meant it seems a bit racist assuming that young black youth who want to vote are too incompetent to get an ID. But presumably poor white or asian ones are smarter and more resourceful. Having lived in poor neighborhoods with various races I'd say that not true based on my experience.

[Pulcinella]

You're the one bringing up incompetence. It's hard to get a driver's license or state ID when you have no car, work a full time job or two, the legislature closed your "local" DMV and the closest one is an hour away by bus.

[rdtsc]

I was trying to figure out what OP meant by the fact that black young won't be able to get IDs to vote. So presumption of incompetence was a guess there.

[dragonwriter]

Black people are more likely to be poor in the first place.

(Not that a policy which selectively disenfranchised the poor would be acceptable if it were race neutral in effect.)

And, it may or may not be Constitutionally possible to have a centralized national ID, but it's certainly not politically likely.

[eru]

> [...] it seems a bit racist assuming that young black youth who want to vote are too incompetent to get an ID.

No need to assume, you can just check the statistics.

[sweep4r]

There are two things I don't understand.

1) How come there isn't a standard, mandatory, country-wide ID card system in place?

2) If you can vote without an ID card, what prevents illegals from voting as somebody else?

[Fej]

1. The American tradition is distrust of government, especially the federal government. A mandatory national ID card would cause riots in the streets.

That being said, it kinda exists already in the form of the Social Security card & number. If a baby is born in a hospital, they get one at birth. If not, the parents can apply for one. It is the de facto way to prove citizenship. Everyone who processes sensitive information asks for it (banks, etc.)

2. Persons in the US illegally don't vote because the benefit is nonexistent and the punishment is very harsh.

[sweep4r]

2. doesn't really convince me--they are illegals, who are staying in a country with no regard for the law. "Harsh punishment" doesn't sound like something that would deter them from doing something like voting, as that could improve their lives greatly.

Anyway I want to know, aren't you identified in any way at all when you vote? Don't you have to pretend you're someone who's on a list, at least?

[Pilfer]

>Anyway I want to know, aren't you identified in any way at all when you vote? Don't you have to pretend you're someone who's on a list, at least?

You can see how easy it is to register to vote in California yourself at the official government website https://covr.sos.ca.gov/ You can complete the first 4 steps of the app without submitting it, just complete the first 4 steps to see what's needed.

You do not need to provide any form of identification to register. When asked, just select "I do not have a California driver license or California identification card." You don't need to provide a social security number, which the govt uses to keep track of your taxes, social security benefits; and is used by banks, hospitals, and credit agencies to verify identity. It is assigned by the govt just after birth and practically every citizen born after ~1940 will have one, and all legal immigrants will have one.

You do not need to provide a mailing address to register. You can say "I do not have a street address."

The only items you have to provide to register to vote are a name, birthdate, and what county you live in. And you just need to check a box stating "I am a U.S. citizen". That's it, it's very very easy to register in California.

One restriction is, you can't register with a very silly name (e.g. "Mr. NotMy RealName" because periodically they will search though voter rolls and purge them. However, if you register with a regular sounding name I don't think it would raise any issue.

[pedrosorio]

Do you really believe the cost-benefit analysis is in favor of voting for a single illegal immigrant when the punishment is deportation and their influence on the outcome of the vote is ~0?

Or do you believe there is an underground organization that mobilizes this "illegal vote" by insuring millions of people against the adverse consequences of being caught voting in order to push for the legalization of all undocumented immigrants?

[sweep4r]

I am sure illegals do dozens of things every day that could get them deported.

I also come from a place where voter fraud is real and significant. Underground organisations that bring old/disabled people to the urns to make them vote whatever they want do exist. We know about that. So whatever is happening in the US won't really surprise me. (Not to say something like this happens in the US, but it's perfectly possible, and it is foolish to simply outright deny that possibility)

[rsynnott]

> I am sure illegals do dozens of things every day that could get them deported.

What? _Dozens_? Committing dozens of crimes a day sounds like a lot of work. Are you under the impression that all undocumented immigrants in the US are in the Mafia, or something?

[janywer]

Where is that place and why isn't anyone doing anything about it?

[eru]

You must be joking. No individual vote changes much.

And not all crimes are the same: most people just want to live a quiet live. So just because they are breaking immigration laws doesn't make them a priori more likely to eg commit murder or voting fraud. (I heard that the undocumented immigrants are much more careful to eg stick to traffic laws, since they don't want to get any attention?)

[andrewla]

To answer your question directly, at least in New York -- yes, you need to pretend that you're someone on a list, and were that person to later show up (or if they had shown up and you tried to pretend to be them) then there would be an issue. In New York this entails giving your name to the official, and signing your name next to your entry in a big book that lists all registered voters in the precinct, after which you are issued a ballot. New York is not supposed to ask for any identification, unless the voter is missing from the rolls.

I assume it is similar in California. Some research indicates that in California, if this is a new registrant, then some identification, or at least proof of residency, must be provided [1]. If documents cannot be provided to the satisfaction of the officials, then a provisional ballot will be offered instead, pending verification of residency.

[1] http://elections.cdn.sos.ca.gov/regulations/hava_id_regs_fro...

[andrewla]

Also, in the interest of clarifying the conversation, the term "illegal immigrant" in the US is used somewhat loosely to refer to two distinct groups.

One is people who committed the crime of "illegal entry" -- they smuggled themselves into the country somehow.

The other group, much more common, is people who visited legally (on a tourist or other visa) but have stayed, in violation of their visa.

It's a mistake to think of the second group as criminals in the technical sense -- they have not committed a criminal offense, only a civil offense. It would be like saying that everyone who exceeds the posted speed limits is a criminal "with no regard for the law".

[walshemj]

quite a lot of anglo saxon countries distrust national id's and a national register can be abused eg rounding up he jews in Europe.

More recently I worked for a Lebanese company in the uk and one of my Lebanese coworkers had had a close family member killed as when he was stopped by a militia had had the wrong religion on his card

[OJFord]

> How come there isn't a standard, mandatory, country-wide ID card system in place?

This doesn't exist in the UK. The USA is bigger, more distrusting of government, and would presumably have to deliberate over whether it was really to be a national system, or rather - perhaps mandatory - state-level systems.