[ptaipale]

I think you don't understand it correctly, and I wonder how you can interpret it that way.

I read the point that being "professional" is also about being able to do good programming work and take responsibility for what you do technically - not just appearing at the office at the right time, being courteous to other people and accepting HR buzzwords and policies and opinions without question.

[Joeri]

My definition of professionalism is about treating your coworkers and customers with respect and empathy, and doing the work with dedication and craftsmanship.

Appearing at the office at the right time is unnecessary just for appearance's sake, but can be a factor in respecting and empathizing with coworkers, for example to be available for questions. It is usually not that important in the grand scheme of things.

[Chris2048]

> treating your coworkers and customers with respect and empathy

This can be as subjective as the word professionalism. People always use their own value judgement in these things - whether it's deciding if something is professional, or not, or if something is respectful, or not.

Sometimes, you do have to just follow rules, for the sake of it, because there is no standard in personal value.

[b4ux1t3]

I don't think anyone would disagree that being respectful is a "professional" quality. "The staff was very professional." What imagery does that illicit? If you're like me, or just about anyone else I've ever heard use the term, polite is one of the first words that springs to mind.

It doesn't matter if you get your work done. There are a hundred other people who can get your work done and do it without being a dick.

Note: I'm not calling _you_ a dick. I just vehemently disagree with anyone who thinks they get to be a dick (or, more generally, act however they please) just because, to borrow terminology from earlier comments, they're "talented".

[Chris2048]

Again, we just shift to the meaning of "being a dick", another subjective term.

If you want to pin down a concept, you can't just deal with easily categorised instances - the real distinctions exist in the grey areas.

There's a multi-dimensional gradient between polite and impolite, and where the thresholds lie is determined by personal value. Pick points far enough to either side, and most of those thresholds will fall within - but it is in the "grey area" that they disagree. That is why an arbitrary, but unambiguous threshold is needed as a standard.

[b4ux1t3]

There are arbitrary, unambiguous, agreed upon standards of politeness. You don't curse people out. You don't sexually harass women (or men, for that matter). You don't show up for work late every day, smelling like a brewery.

However, those are all things that I've personally seen these so-called "talented" individuals do, because they think their talent makes them immune from criticism. And, sure, that's just my own, anecdotal experience, but the very fact that it's also a widely-held stereotype of these types of people, I would wager that I'm not alone in having been confronted with these types of people.

This isn't a gray area. This is the basic idea of being professional, and it holds true between places where a suit and tie is mandatory and places where you can bring your dog to work every day.

And to be absolutely clear, this is a very Western-centric view. I simply _don't know_ enough to comment on how this applies to more Eastern work environments.

[direfungasaur]

There are arbitrary, unambiguous, agreed upon standards of politeness. You don't curse people out.

This are unambiguous when you are interacting with people before you have established your own norms. It's possible for a healthy team to have a dynamic where cursing out bad code is completely acceptable, while cursing a person is not. The camaraderie built around breaking a social norm (cursing) can offset shock at violating the norm. However, that should change or be re-evaluated every time that norm is disturbed.

It's also possible to go 'too polite', to the point where criticism goes unsaid because you don't want to offend. That's just as toxic of a culture, it just leads to a much slower demise than the flame-outs you get from more visceral bad behaviors.

[BeetleB]

>There are arbitrary, unambiguous, agreed upon standards of politeness. You don't curse people out. You don't sexually harass women (or men, for that matter). You don't show up for work late every day, smelling like a brewery.

...

>This isn't a gray area.

Argument from extremes.

Whenever the topic of "Well, what do they mean by professionalism?" you'll invariably get a response stating something really obvious, and pointing out people who violated those obvious norms.

Since I didn't, and don't expect to, violate them, this kind of comment is almost useless. Why? Because in no place where I've worked is the use of the word "professionalism" limited to those domains.

You will get people who do everything you said still be called unprofessional. Which is why the question becomes "Well, what does professional mean?" and invariably someone will give your response and we get nowhere.

I worked for a tutoring agency once. Our boss was trying to tell us that we should be careful not to make the student feel like a moron because they couldn't solve a problem we tutors found easy. What does that mean? He demonstrated it to us by saying "Well, when someone asks you an easy question, don't say 'Wow! You really can't do such a simple question?!'"

That demonstration was really helpful. We all went back and occasionally said to a student "Sure I can help you solve this trivial problem".

(No, of course we didn't. The point was to someone who wasn't aware, this approach would be totally appropriate for a tutor to do because he's not making explicit fun of the student).

People who leave with 2 week's notice have been called unprofessional.

People who don't reply to pointless emails have been called unprofessional.

Just open up an "Ask HN" thread and ask people what crazy things have been called "unprofessional" in their work place.

Sorry, but I have to agree with the others. Saying "Be professional" is as useless as "Be cool" or "Be good".

If a company doesn't have proper guidelines and training on what they expect their employees to do, then that company doesn't value professionalism. Not providing guidance and then pointing fingers is pretty low.

[Chris2048]

Those are all unprofessional. But the point I originally made was with regards to professional being defined "respect and empathy" etc etc.

To what degree tech does, or should, value "professional"/polite behavior is a different topic.

[durgiston]

Is it really that hard though? Being professional and polite is the LEAST that you can do. Just say hi to people, don't talk over them, make some small talk, shake their hands when you meet. LISTEN to others. Don't make 'jokes' involving anything remotely sexual. If you follow these steps you are almost certain not to get in trouble, and you will be liked by most people in an office setting. It is not hard to be nice.

[CJefferson]

I think "wildly unprofessional behavior" is things like sexually harassing other workers in your company, insulting people, that kind of thing.

The problem here is I think people have different definitions of "wildly unprofessional behavior".

[criddell]

Figuring out what behavior is appropriate, understanding the corporate culture, and finding the best opportunities for you to help set and advance the agenda are all big parts of being a professional.

They are skills you have to develop though and young people will make mistakes as they figure out what the boundaries are. If you are fortunate enough to have a mentor in the business, you have a huge advantage.