[thomasDE]

> It's like writing shitty PHP code without templates.

For me, it's the other way around. I feel like you can still separate the logic and markup, but instead of the template engine syntax you can just JavaScript.

From the top of my head, I can at least remember six template engines' syntax I've learned: Smarty (PHP), Mustache, Blade (PHP), EJS, Angular and another custom template engine. When I tried React I was so happy that I did not have to learn another template syntax as it all was just JavaScript.

Another template engine syntax? No, thank you. I stick to React.

[Bahamut]

To be fair, JSX has its own idiosyncracies too for templating, such as className, htmlFor, and the obnoxious attribute name for dynamically inserted html. It is not immune to the criticism that it requires learning.

[twhb]

Those names have nothing to do with JSX or React, they're the actual properties you're setting. JS properties don't map 1:1 to HTML attributes: while for example the "src" attribute is controlled using the "src" property, the "for" attribute is controlled using the "htmlFor" property, and the "class" attribute with the "className" property. All React is doing is setting the properties you tell it to.

(The reason for the name change is that old versions of JS couldn't use keywords - like "for" and "class" - as property names.)

[tshaddox]

I agree. Those examples have nothing to do with learning a new template syntax, it's simply the API of React.Component.

Granted, there is still some syntax you need to learn for JSX, but it's very little. If you already know HTML's syntax, the only new things I can think of are the curly braces for using JS expressions as prop values (you also need to know what a JS expression is, lest you try to use an if statement), and spread attributes.

[twhb]

I think you misunderstand. The names are unrelated to React as well, they are native. Defined by the same standards bodies that define JavaScript itself, implemented by the browsers themselves. On a blank HTML page that includes neither React nor anything else, the line `document.body.className = "foo";` sets the body's class to "foo". (And `document.body.class = "foo";` does not.)

All JSX is doing is transforming `<div className="foo">` into `[create div element]; div.className = "foo";`. If you wrote `<div class="foo">`, JSX would faithfully transform it into `[create div element]; div.class = "foo";` - which doesn't work.

[allover]

Whilst you're correct, that's where the names are from, it's also not totally accurate to suggest it has nothing to do with React.

React defines `React.createElement`, `<div class="foo"/>` transforms to `React.createElement("div", { "class": "foo" })`, so React could convert that under the hood to set className correctly.

Preact does something similar to allow this. However it now seems it is now too late for React for too little benefit. And there's a downside [1]:

> The JSX transform used to do that, but we don't recommend it because it's confusing if you ever try to pass class= or for= as a prop to your own components – you wouldn't expect to access them with a different name.

[1] https://github.com/facebook/react/issues/4433#issuecomment-1...

[tshaddox]

Good point. I didn't realize that the native DOM properties are also called "className" and "htmlFor". My point still applies though, that this isn't a JSX syntax issue, your point is that it's also not even a JSX-specific semantics issue.

[tripzilch]

not quite, the list of reserved keywords was made up by the committee that designed the first version of ecmascript in 10 days (or however the exact story goes).

many years later, the workarounds like class -> className were designed by whatever party exerted most control over the JS DOM API (which is not really part of "Javascript itself") at the time, and who also brought you inconsistent camelcasing such as "onclick" ...

it's neither quite "native", nor is "defined by the same standards bodies" much of a sign of good design or worthy of copying.

feels more like if someone were to build, say, a modern high perf numerical library that includes necessary workarounds tributed to the eax/ax/ah/al peculiarities of x86 assembly.

[tripzilch]

ah so you only need to memorise the list of js "reserved" keywords and it's intuitive as a banana :)

mistakes were made. then copied, repeated and finally, standardised :)

[brlewis]

Actually those idiosyncracies are React, not JSX. Using JSX with Mithril I've had no trouble using reserved words as attribute names. Dynamically inserted html in Mithril/JSX is just {m.trust(str)}

Edit: I should also mention that Mithril comes with routing built in, as well as XHR utility and streams. I'm finding streams super useful for sophisticated state management.

[PeckhamPouncer]

> To be fair, JSX has its own idiosyncracies too for templating, such as className, htmlFor,

those are the Javascript attribute names.

> and the obnoxious attribute name for dynamically inserted html.

Depends on your taste, but this is a plus for me, personally.

> It is not immune to the criticism that it requires learning.

It's takes maybe 10 minutes if you're already a little bit familiar with XML and know Javascript.

[moo360]

You're right, but it's one of those things that you can basically treat it as html until you can't - and the points at which you can't are quite specific and other than className - are rarely used. Also the dynamically inserted html param being obnoxious is by design - they don't want you to dynamically insert html, and that's a good thing. Honestly you shouldn't ever be using that param.

[unclebucknasty]

>I can at least remember six template engines' syntax I've learned...

TBH, in 2017, I'm not sure why we're still hand-generating HTML with any template language.

Instead, I'd really like to see a framework that gets away from the idea of HTML templating altogether and presents a true component/properties model on top of a canvas with flexible, property-driven layout options.

I think the intense UI-demands of progressiveness/SPAs expose the unsuitability of HTML for the task. But, simply because HTML is what we're stuck with browser-wise, there's no reason we have to think or work in HTML. Use tooling to abstract it away altogether and let a translator generate it.

[meredydd]

This is exactly what we're aiming for with https://anvil.works.

We have a components+properties model, driven in Python, which gets translated to HTML+JS+CSS. We also have a visual editor, and abstractions over a bunch of the client-server stuff that's typically icky on the Web.

The challenge of such a system is that the web platform is so huge and sprawling, and constantly growing - and all of it's written in JS/HTML. So we've made the pragmatic choice to prioritise usability by non-web developers, and open an "escape hatch" for doing layout etc in HTML if you really need to. But most of our users don't need it, and we're constantly working to extend the boundary of what you can do with simple properties and components.

[unclebucknasty]

Very interesting. Yes, at a glance, that's exactly what I had in mind.

>the web platform is so huge and sprawling, and constantly growing

>we've made the pragmatic choice to prioritise usability by non-web developers, and open an "escape hatch

Makes sense. And totally worth the tradeoff for the developer if it helps me flip the 80/20 rule around. And, if the component model is extensible such that, when I do have to open the escape hatch, I can plug a resulting component back into the framework (lay it out and set properties in the visual editor, etc.), that might be even more optimal. Either way, I'd rather a framework do the heavy lifting and let me deal with the edge cases than me do all of the heavy lifting and plumbing, so that's a win.

>and all of it's written in JS/HTML

And, this is the part where I do have to scratch my head a little. I'm going to guess you've heard this question 4,321,257 times, but why not support JS? It is the lingua franca of the Web (as your quote acknowledges) for better or worse, and virtually all devs already know it. There's also a rich JS library ecosystem.

The idea that I have to pick up Python just to try it out introduces more friction. I'm guessing that might slow adoption with a huge percentage of your potential audience who might otherwise have the knowledge they need to jump right in.

[meredydd]

> Yes, at a glance, that's exactly what I had in mind.

Thrilled to hear it! If you do try it in more depth, please do drop me a line (email in my profile).

> why not support JS?

Two reasons:

1. Basically, the moment you use JS, any discipline or abstraction you were trying to introduce dissolves. People will reach in and use the DOM/combine it with other Web frameworks/what-have-you. And then you'll still need to know HTML and CSS and all these other pieces, as well as this new framework, and you've done the opposite of simplifying web development. This is the "Javascript Framework of the Week" failure mode.

2. Contrary to your assertion, "most devs" don't actually know JS. It's something people only learn because they're learning front-end web development, and it's difficult to learn it without the whole HTML/CSS/frameworks hairball. Python is much friendlier to, eg, data scientists or embedded programmers or back-end developers, who have every right to think they should be able to put together a web app without learning three new programming languages and two new frameworks.

(This is another way of putting what I said earlier about "prioritising usability for non-web devs".)

[unclebucknasty]

>Basically, the moment you use JS, any discipline or abstraction you were trying to introduce dissolves.

I see. Kind of a purist approach that eliminates all temptation by not offering the option to go there. Sound reasoning, as JS definitely has slippery-slope potential.

>People will reach in and use the DOM/combine it with other Web frameworks/what-have-you. And then you'll still need to know HTML and CSS

I'm probably too biased to make a call on this. I'm so wanting to be released from that madness that I'd fight tooth-and-nail not to descend back into it.

So, I look at it the other way around: My JS would be more disciplined (and there'd be les of it), as I'd be released from the need to use it so much for stuff like DOM handling. In my ideal world, I wouldn't even know there was a DOM or HTML or CSS. I'd just use JS in event handling and, perhaps, functionality that directly supports the same.

>"most devs" don't actually know JS...people only learn because they're learning front-end web development

That's what I intended--that most web devs know JS--as I was speaking in the context of web development.

But, I missed the emphasis on the "non-Web devs" portion of your statement. I do get that and applaud you for staying with your focus. The product has to have a market and an identity. OTOH, it feels so close for guys like me in the Web dev world who know there's a better way!

>please do drop me a line (email in my profile).

Will do. And will try to reserve any web-dev specific comments. :)

[quickben]

You have tons of well established platform tools that will give you way more power at your fingertips if you wish so.

Have you tried QT or Xamarin?

[unclebucknasty]

>Have you tried QT or Xamarin?

These are for desktop/mobile apps right? If so, yeah, there are other options as well.

Was thinking more something like this, but for SPAs.

[bphogan]

See Elm.

[msangi]

I feel that the focus on graphics has faded a bit in the most recent versions.

When I last gave it a try I had to manually generated the HTML document but without a (at least of of the box) syntax like jsx. If I recall correctly graphics is still there, but it's mainly used for games

[rtfeldman]

Check out the style-elements[0] package and the author's talk at Elm Europe introducing it[1]. It outputs HTML and CSS but doesn't base its semantics on either.

It has a clean-slate design, and there's a ton of buzz in the Elm community about it. :)

[0] http://package.elm-lang.org/packages/mdgriffith/style-elemen...

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYb2GDWMIm0

[jcoffland]

Sounds like you want Visual Basic.

[unclebucknasty]

I've never worked in VB, but I've compared the concept to Swing for Web apps.

[Rusky]

You can use JSX with Vue, and still get its other benefits. :)

[gcoda]

Also you can do with just JavaScript. With render-function.

h('ul', [ h('li', 'one'), h('li', 'two') ])

And use native array methods instead of v-for v-if and filtering data with component methods

[vladimir-y]

> With render-function.

This is even worse as for me. Generally the JSX/React.createElement approach itself and the fact that many people like the idea make me cry. Do people like it just because it's given by FB?

[shados]

The syntax to me is irrelevant. The important bit is to use as much JS and as little string/DSL template as possible.

Why? Because tooling. Anything that's in JavaScript can be linted with ESLint, can be typed with Flow or TypeScript, is subject to dead code elimination by my minifier, can be shared via ES6 Modules/CommonJS wihin my project or NPM with no magic. All editors that understand JavaScript will give me all of their shinies (eg: tell me if I screwed up a conditional) without needing special framework specific support.

JSX itself used to cause these problems too (but createElement and the factories of old did not), but now that they're pervasive and that anything that supports ES6 supports JSX, I get all of these benefits for free.

The moment I hop into template/DSL land, I either hope there's a plugin with all the same benefits (often there is not), or I'm sad.

Note that people who use React + JSX and make stuff like "if" or "else" components fall into these problems too, so those have to be fully avoided.

[gcoda]

This thread is about 'yet another templating engine'. With Vue you can use JSX or even without any templates.

Sometimes it might be useful, for small components,something like

   render: this.menu.sort().map(item=>h('li', item.title))

But i am using Vue with Pug and Stylus, i am fine with it.

[jcoffland]

> Another template engine syntax? No, thank you.

JSX is another templating language. One built on top of JavaScript rather than HTML.

[oceanswave]

Been using angular for years, and recently picked up react -- as time goes on the HTML based DSL within templates starts to approach JavaScript