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by BigJono 3230 days ago
Yep.

I've been working with React for years now, over several large projects. I still feel like I'm not used to it, and I still hate it. That's not normal.

We need to either figure out how to do this shit with mutable data structures, or we need a new language that's immutable by default.

ImmutableJS blows chunks. Yeah it "saves" code until you start doing the data transformation dance trying to figure out when and where to convert between plain JS objects and Immutable ones. Then you end up with some real ugly shit that'll trip up every new hire you walk through it (we use a higher order component that converts a component's Immutable props to regular objects, which incidentally is another import that like 800 unrelated files depend on...)

God help you if you don't use well commented code or Hungarian notation to differentiate between Immutable objects and regular ones. We all know how long good commenting practices last without thorough code reviews, and we all know how long those last in fast-moving environments, which is where React is most useful.

I guess a typed language would solve that. No, Flow and Typescript don't count.
2 comments
joncampbelldev 3230 days ago
Did you say "immutable by default"?

fanfare, fireworks, etc

CLOJURESCRIPT!!

sorry I just get really excited when I can mention it ... I'll go now

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mamp 3230 days ago
Why don't Flow or Typescript count? Our team uses TypeScript, mostly C# devs, it's been great. The main issue getting definitions for some less common libraries.

We haven't been using immutability.js because of the back and forth overhead between regular JS and immutable objects. Instead we use mutation checking of the Redux store during development you can make sure nobody is stomping on it by accident.

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BigJono 3230 days ago
> The main issue getting definitions for some less common libraries.

That's one problem. The other is discipline. It's just way too easy to opt out of the type system. It shouldn't be a problem, but in the world of deadlines where every single front-end dev is intimately familiar with writing plain old Javascript, it is. All it takes is one manager that's a bit pushy, or one urgent production bug, and your codebase is on it's way to turning into a pile of shit.

I do love type systems, but IMO they have to be part of the language, it just doesn't work as an optional addon.

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