[Lazare]

The risk behind Preact isn't the API. Remember, this is a discussion about patents, so what matters is fundamental concepts and algorithms.

The most likely thing for Facebook to patent is the concept of a virtual DOM that's diffed to apply updates to the real DOM. IF they have such a patent (and apparently they don't), then any library that has a vdom implementation infringes, including Preact.

Of course, if they DON'T have such a patent (which seems to be the case), then Preact is safe, but so is React. :)

[true_religion]

They would have to sue on the basis that Preact and by extension all React-compatible APIs are in violation of their patent.

This would cause mass alienation in the community for little gain, and force many previously neutral parties to align against them for attacking a completely separate project.

And for little damage as well....

If we rewrote our sites to use React coming from Backbone, JQuery and Angular... it won't be too much of a hardship to rewrite our sites to no longer use React in the future. Heck considering the 5-year churn of JS frameworks, I'm already penciling in the rise of a new framework in 2022.

[ballenf]

They would simply sue a particular company for employing infringing technology. They wouldn't have to nor want to make any broader claim than necessary to achieve their goals in the case at hand.

It would likely be a company suing FB for infringing a patent who happens to also use Preact in a site. FB presumably wouldn't have access to the site source code (pre-suit), but would be looking at the compiled, minified public site. I don't know how Preact and React look when compiled compared to each other, but given their similar structures it might be hard to tell them apart. FB would identify the offending bits of code or code structure. They wouldn't need to even use the word "Preact" (or "React") in the suit.

If the underlying suit was a patent troll suing FB, FB's use of React patent clause might actually be celebrated in a enemy-of-my-enemy kind of way by the broader developer community.

It would require FB to finally disclose the patent numbers applicable to React. I've spent a few hours attempted to review FB's patents to find anything related to React technology, but it's a needle in a haystack challenge and I failed. There are tens of thousands of patents and impossible to know what keywords to search for. (If someone else has done this work, would be great!)

[vonmoltke]

> They would have to sue on the basis that Preact and by extension all React-compatible APIs are in violation of their patent.

Why? Why is the API relevant at all?

[chx]

I believe you are mistaken, the problem with the license, if I recall the discussion correctly was that if your company used React then they can't go on a patent lawsuit with Facebook even if the patents have zilch to do with React.

[chrisco255]

Great explanation of implications of React patent clause: https://medium.com/@dwalsh.sdlr/react-facebook-and-the-revok...

[oneweekwonder]

No.

The implication is if you use react now you give away rights.

The same is not true for angular, vue or mithril. Some argue if you use vdom there might be issue. But at least with those you/your dev is not giving away rights willingly...

But come to think of it; That is the way fb started :/

[chrisco255]

No, what rights are you giving away? You always have the right to sue anyone for any reason. There have always been consequences for doing so. If you want to sue Facebook for patent infringement...they own thousands of patents, mind you...they are going to comb through their portfolio and find which ones you're infringing on in your product. That's what any company would do. Google. Apple. Microsoft. Samsung. Yahoo. Any of them.

[jannotti]

That may be what was said in a discussion, but it is incorrect. If your company sues Facebook for a patent, then you lose the extra patent grant, which means you would have only the original BSD license. Which is what ASF seems to want the software license under anyway.

The patent grant from FB grants you strictly more rights than BSD alone (though admittedly, you could lose those extra rights).

[Lazare]

> if I recall the discussion correctly was that if your company used React then they can't go on a patent lawsuit with Facebook even if the patents have zilch to do with React.

Not at all.

[imtringued]

React is still unsafe because facebook can infringe on your patents and if you sue you will lose your rights to use react.

[Lazare]

That's simply false. It cannot happen. How many times does this need to be explained?

It's been discussed a ton, the plain language of the license makes that clear, Facebook even covered this in their official React license FAQ (https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556).

Please stop spreading FUD.

[koolba]

From the linked FAQ:

>> Does the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license terminate if I sue Facebook for something other than patent infringement?

> No.

>> Does the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license terminate if Facebook sues me for patent infringement first, and then I respond with a patent counterclaim against Facebook?

> No, unless your patent counterclaim is related to Facebook's software licensed under the Facebook BSD+Patents license.

My interpretation of that is if I use React I can't sue Facebook for any patent violations lest they pull their React patent licenses and immediately sue me for infringement.

[Lazare]

> immediately sue me for infringement.

Of what? Patents are public; link me the patent you think they'd sue you for infringing. :)

[koolba]

> Of what? Patents are public; link me the patent you think they'd sue you for infringing. :)

If they really want to crush little ol' me, I'm sure their legal team can find something in their existing patent warchest that would apply to React.

Plus we don't know if they have applied for patents that would apply to React that are still under review.

[Lazare]

> If they really want to crush little ol' me, I'm sure their legal team can find something in their existing patent warchest that would apply to React.

Yes, but also to your non-React code, right?

Like...seriously, what patent do you think they might have that somehow only applies to React and not all the other modern frameworks that have been busily copying React?

[doctorless]

I think we read a different FAQ, or I'm misreading your link. The FAQ says that if Facebook sues _you_ for patent infringement and you counter sue for patent infringement that they won't revoke your license, but I don't see anything that answers the parent comment's concern.

[Lazare]

> Does termination of the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license cause the copyright license to also terminate?

> No.

In short, if you get into a patent dispute with them, your license to use React does not terminate.

So when someone says "if you sue you will lose your rights to use react" this is wrong. My rights to use React come from the BSD license, not from the patent grant.

[doctorless]

It's not entirely wrong. If you get into a patent dispute with them, you lose the patent grant to React, which means if they have any (none have been seen yet) patents related to React, they can very quickly countersue you, making the patent suit from your end, while still valid, a guaranteed financial ruin for any business not on their scale. We're not saying the license + patents combination explicitly grants Facebook the right to infringe on your patents, but rather it's a trap clause that makes it impossible to survive a patent lawsuit against them by virtue of using React, which in _effect_ is like a patent grant back to them.

[gstein67]

Exactly. You'll be using the React code under the BSD license but without any patent grants.

[jnbiche]

Is this is true, then why the hell is Facebook digging in like this? They're going to ruin their hard-earned open source creds for very little gain.

[Lazare]

Probably because they don't care. They created React to solve a problem they had, they open sourced it 'cause why not, some people adopted it, some people didn't...Facebook doesn't care either way. They're not an open source company, and they don't really care how many startups use React, or how many Github stars they+ have. They don't rely on external users for testing, or external devs for contributions.

It's not so much they're "digging in" in the face of criticism, as they simply haven't noticed the criticism, because it has no relevance to Facebook at the level where corporate policy is set. Or so I believe. :)

[jnbiche]

> ...Facebook doesn't care either way

I disagree. There are clearly a lot of people who evangelize React and other open source projects. It helps a lot with recruitment and Facebook's public relations among devs. I just don't think the attorneys grasp how much this is affecting other parts of the company.

[jopsen]

Even if you reject the notion of software patents..

I don't want a non-standard license... It's just more complexity we don't need.

Make it LGPLv3 or something if you want a patent clause, don't invent your own.

[jbwyme]

I'm pretty sure that the concept (or implementation) of virtual dom wasn't invented as a part of React. IANAL but I don't think they could patent it. Ignoring specific optimizations, a virtual dom algorithm is fairly simple.

[Lazare]

Correct, there is known prior art relating to vdoms, so any such patent would be fairly easy to defeat, IF it exists...and patents are public, and people have looked, and no such patent seems to exist.

The patent issue is really not a big deal with React; the real concern is philosophical.

[jnbiche]

Patents are public, and Facebook does not have a vdom patent. It's puzzling that this is even a question.